Need Help - Imperial Research Project

Luke · 02-16-2003, 09:58 AM

This project has been posted on the other Luger Forum with good results, and I am hoping to gain additional data from members here who are not involved with the other board.

Military DWM Lugers were initially marked in the COMMERCIAL style with the last two digits on the undersides or bottoms of the side (trigger) plate and takedown lever. Furthermore, these digits were either missing or not showing on the extractor and middle toggle link.

At some point in the production of the Military Imperials the serial number placement was changed to the MILITARY style with the last two digits on the sides of the takedown lever and the side (trigger) plate and on the tops of the extractor and the middle toggle link.

Some published information suggests that the transition from COMMERCIAL to MILITARY serial number placement took place in 1912, but all of the data I have collected so far indicates that it took place in late 1911 production.

Thus far I have data from sixteen 1911 DWMs and from nine 1912 DWMs.

The 1911s have COMMERCIAL SN placement on 12 units ranging from 81xx-d to 88xx-e. The last 4 samples of these 1911s have MILITARY placement and range from serial numbers 93xx-e to 98xx-e.

All of the 1912s have MILITARY placement and range from #7xx to #78xx.

This leads to the hypothesis that the transition took place in 1911 between 88xx-e and 93xx-e with a 497 unit uncertainty range.

Would very much appreciate additional data from owners of 1911 DWMs and 1912 DWMs. I will not disclose to anyone the last 2 digits of serial numbers provided, and I will not identify the owner of any sample in my database.

Please respond here or by private email at
lugesm@charter.net.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Luke

saxman · 02-16-2003, 02:29 PM

I have a DWM with the commercial-type numbering on the bottom of the sideplate, but it has military ser.no. of 40xxh. Would this fall in the category you're looking for?

Luke · 02-17-2003, 05:01 AM

saxman,

Is your Luger a 1911 or 1912?

All of the MILITARY DWM Lugers had the standard mil type serial numbers, 4 digits with or without a suffix, as compared to the 5 digit numbers used on the commercials.

At issue is the placement or location of the last two digits on the small parts, namely the extractor, middle toggle link, trigger plate, and takedown lever. From your description it appears that your Luger is a Military DWM with commercial SN placement.

Can you confirm year of manufacture?

Thanks,
Luke

Carl · 02-17-2003, 02:52 PM

Luke,
I have a 1911 DWM 1154e. The last two digits are on the botton of side plate and take down lever. Gun is all matching including the clip and without a stock lug. Vet picked.
Carl

Luke · 02-18-2003, 02:19 AM

Carl,

Thank you for the information; very helpful.

Your configuration is entirely consistent with my earlier data and is supportive of same.

Regards,
Luke

Lugerdoc · 02-18-2003, 03:10 AM

Luke, In your research of the M1908-1911 Military lugers with early commerical serialization, please note if the extractors and mid=toggle links are numbered internally. Most that I've seen have been. Tom H.

Luke · 02-18-2003, 02:38 PM

Tom,

In every case except my own guns, I have received email data on 1911 and 1912 Lugers.

Data on the extractor and middle toggle link was not reported.

If I have access to that data on future Luger reports, I will record it.

Luke

saxman · 02-19-2003, 08:02 AM

Luke; How do you tell what year of manufacture it is?

Ron Wood · 02-19-2003, 09:02 AM

Saxman,
The object of Luke's research is the early DWM military Lugers of the 1908 pattern having no stock lug. The date is stamped over the chamber from 1910 to 1913. If your Luger is a 1908 and is not dated, then it would have been manufactured in 1908 or 1909, and the commercial style serial numbering is normal. The serial number of your Luger is unusual in that I have not seen any reference to a suffix higher than "b" for the 1908 undated Lugers. The serial number 40xxh is well beyond that range. Could you check and see if it is perhaps a partially stamped "b"?

Luke · 02-19-2003, 04:53 PM

Saxman,

I believe that the transition from COMMERCIAL serial number location to MILITARY location or placement occurred in 1911. All of my data to this date supports this hypothesis.

Therefore, I am primarily interested in 1911 and 1912 DWM Lugers. If yours has a chanber date, please advise.

Thanks for your help.

Luke

Luke · 02-19-2003, 04:56 PM

To all,

I REALLY NEED MORE DATA ON 1912 DWM Military Lugers. If you have a 1912 DWM, please contact me by reply to this Forum or directly at: lugesm@charter.net.

Thanks.

saxman · 02-22-2003, 10:35 AM

Thanks for the info - Mine has a stock lug, so it is not in the 1908 pattern. Furthermore, it has a property stamp of 1920 on the chamber. Sorry, Luke, I thought I had something you could use.

02-16-2003, 09:58 AM	#1
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Need Help - Imperial Research Project This project has been posted on the other Luger Forum with good results, and I am hoping to gain additional data from members here who are not involved with the other board. Military DWM Lugers were initially marked in the COMMERCIAL style with the last two digits on the undersides or bottoms of the side (trigger) plate and takedown lever. Furthermore, these digits were either missing or not showing on the extractor and middle toggle link. At some point in the production of the Military Imperials the serial number placement was changed to the MILITARY style with the last two digits on the sides of the takedown lever and the side (trigger) plate and on the tops of the extractor and the middle toggle link. Some published information suggests that the transition from COMMERCIAL to MILITARY serial number placement took place in 1912, but all of the data I have collected so far indicates that it took place in late 1911 production. Thus far I have data from sixteen 1911 DWMs and from nine 1912 DWMs. The 1911s have COMMERCIAL SN placement on 12 units ranging from 81xx-d to 88xx-e. The last 4 samples of these 1911s have MILITARY placement and range from serial numbers 93xx-e to 98xx-e. All of the 1912s have MILITARY placement and range from #7xx to #78xx. This leads to the hypothesis that the transition took place in 1911 between 88xx-e and 93xx-e with a 497 unit uncertainty range. Would very much appreciate additional data from owners of 1911 DWMs and 1912 DWMs. I will not disclose to anyone the last 2 digits of serial numbers provided, and I will not identify the owner of any sample in my database. Please respond here or by private email at lugesm@charter.net. Thanks for any help you can provide. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-16-2003, 02:29 PM	#2
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have a DWM with the commercial-type numbering on the bottom of the sideplate, but it has military ser.no. of 40xxh. Would this fall in the category you're looking for? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

02-17-2003, 05:01 AM	#3
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	saxman, Is your Luger a 1911 or 1912? All of the MILITARY DWM Lugers had the standard mil type serial numbers, 4 digits with or without a suffix, as compared to the 5 digit numbers used on the commercials. At issue is the placement or location of the last two digits on the small parts, namely the extractor, middle toggle link, trigger plate, and takedown lever. From your description it appears that your Luger is a Military DWM with commercial SN placement. Can you confirm year of manufacture? Thanks, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-18-2003, 02:19 AM	#5
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Carl, Thank you for the information; very helpful. Your configuration is entirely consistent with my earlier data and is supportive of same. Regards, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-18-2003, 03:10 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Luke, In your research of the M1908-1911 Military lugers with early commerical serialization, please note if the extractors and mid=toggle links are numbered internally. Most that I've seen have been. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

02-17-2003, 02:52 PM	#4
Carl User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central PA Posts: 113 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Luke, I have a 1911 DWM 1154e. The last two digits are on the botton of side plate and take down lever. Gun is all matching including the clip and without a stock lug. Vet picked. Carl

02-18-2003, 02:38 PM	#7
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Tom, In every case except my own guns, I have received email data on 1911 and 1912 Lugers. Data on the extractor and middle toggle link was not reported. If I have access to that data on future Luger reports, I will record it. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-19-2003, 08:02 AM	#8
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luke; How do you tell what year of manufacture it is? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

02-19-2003, 09:02 AM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	Saxman, The object of Luke's research is the early DWM military Lugers of the 1908 pattern having no stock lug. The date is stamped over the chamber from 1910 to 1913. If your Luger is a 1908 and is not dated, then it would have been manufactured in 1908 or 1909, and the commercial style serial numbering is normal. The serial number of your Luger is unusual in that I have not seen any reference to a suffix higher than "b" for the 1908 undated Lugers. The serial number 40xxh is well beyond that range. Could you check and see if it is perhaps a partially stamped "b"? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-19-2003, 04:53 PM	#10
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Saxman, I believe that the transition from COMMERCIAL serial number location to MILITARY location or placement occurred in 1911. All of my data to this date supports this hypothesis. Therefore, I am primarily interested in 1911 and 1912 DWM Lugers. If yours has a chanber date, please advise. Thanks for your help. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-19-2003, 04:56 PM	#11
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	To all, I REALLY NEED MORE DATA ON 1912 DWM Military Lugers. If you have a 1912 DWM, please contact me by reply to this Forum or directly at: lugesm@charter.net. Thanks. __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

02-22-2003, 10:35 AM	#12
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the info - Mine has a stock lug, so it is not in the 1908 pattern. Furthermore, it has a property stamp of 1920 on the chamber. Sorry, Luke, I thought I had something you could use. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.