OK, what do I have?

glenn_r · 09-05-2006, 07:56 PM

Although I have a C&R license, I'm a Luger imbecile, having spent most of my time with US weapons. While at a recent class, I was offered this Luger for what I thought was a very fair price and made the impulse buy. Though the grips look to be micarta (

), the rest of the gun looks in great shape, and it flawlessly fired the 6 FMJ rounds I ran through it while inspecting it.

Can anyone give me a summary of what I have, an educated guess about whether it appears to have been refinished, and what a fair valuation would be? Also, is there a longer serial number somewhere? A 3-digit serial number seems way too short.

I really appreciate the help!

Links to larger, more detailed pics:

Left front
Left rear
Right side
Top of receiver
Bottom of barrel (import marks??)

policeluger · 09-05-2006, 08:00 PM

It is a Russian rework/rebuilt...the bulls eye target on the grips is the give away...dip blued small parts, should be straw colored....still I bet a good shooter...and yes import marked.

Edward Tinker · 09-05-2006, 08:33 PM

Glenn, welcome to the forum!

Although a reblue and all, we can figure out its original info. We would need a lot more information than you didn't give us

Serial number, including suffix, year, toggle marking, proofs, acceptance markings etc.

Yes, a 3 digit is acceptable, thus the reason for the suffix on the front of the frame, if it has no suffix, then it was the xxx made that "year", although there are exceptions to this, and as I said, we need a lot more information.

OOPS, sorry Glenn, missed the pictures at the bottom, I usually look for pictures posted here, not picture bucket or whatever it is called

It is a 1917 DWM, so suffix depends on when it was made, if only a 3 digit, then it was made the first week or so in 1917, if with a suffix, then every 10k the number started over with a new suffix.

Ed

glenn_r · 09-05-2006, 08:47 PM

There's an italicized "i" on the front of the frame, but except for that, all the markings on the exterior of the pistol are shown in the linked photographs at the bottom of my first post. Is there somewhere on the gun I should more carefully inspect that isn't shown in those photos?

I suppose it's too much to hope for, but is there any record of what serial numbers were issued to what units? It's very interesting that this is a Russian-capture, because my mother's brother was killed fighting outside Stalingrad. It's a million-to-one shot, but if there's a record of what units were issued what guns...

Thanks for the help thus far! I sincerely appreciate it.

Edward Tinker · 09-05-2006, 08:51 PM

See above, I missed your pictures. VERY seldom is info found to point to a unit, it would need to be unit marked (obvious if done on the front gripstrap usually), or you knew who captured it and from whom, so no, almost no way to find out.

NOTE:
Although a "giveaway" having either the east german or the russian capture grips, I always check each gun out, as they are only grips

and could be swapped out by someone who "liked" the grips. A pair of krieghoff grips donna make a krieghoff

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 09-05-2006, 11:13 PM

The notch cut into the front of the receiver at the top indicates that this gun was origianlly an Artillery model.

--Dwight

Ron Smith · 09-05-2006, 11:39 PM

Hi Glenn,

My guess would be an East German VOPO Volkspolizei (Peoples Police). Russian capture Lugers almost always have a large X stamped near the serial number on the left signifying crossed rifles, a Russian acceptance mark.

This is a very nice example compared to most VOPOs or even Russian captures. Incidently, "Russian Capture" doesn't necessarily mean that it was captured in battle, but could mean captured stores or manufacturing facilities. As in captured in quantity from storage or armories when Germany was over run.

Some collectors, myself included, feel that the VOPOs are sleepers and will become collectable in their own right eventually.

Just my input, for what it's worth...

Ron

glenn_r · 09-06-2006, 12:48 PM

Fantastic information, thanks. Is there an on-line history I could read covering these VOPOs? Were they imported en-masse recently?

What's the approximate value of this thing?

thanks again!

pipeman45 · 09-06-2006, 02:00 PM

Well it has VOPO grips on it but we would need to see close up shots of ALL the markings to tell for sure. Thats top,bottom,both sides,under the barrel,and even inside the frame.About all I can say at this point is. Thats not a bad looking Luger you have there!

Well I looked at the pics and it is a Russian Capture. The X on the left rear is the mark that they put on them. It looks like a very nice shooter. With only one piece not matching on the exterior and a dip blue. I have a 1940/42 in about the same condition and I love it.It looks good and I can shoot it all day not having to worry about breaking a matching part. I would like to know what condition is the bore and how much did you have to give for it?

glenn_r · 09-06-2006, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pipeman45
Well I looked at the pics and it is a Russian Capture. The X on the left rear is the mark that they put on them...With only one piece not matching on the exterior and a dip blue...I would like to know what condition is the bore and how much did you have to give for it?

You are all an amazing resource. I appreciate all the responses. Of course, now I have even more questions

Is the "X" ID'ing this as a "Russian capture" on the left or right when looking down the sights?
What is the non-matching piece on the exterior?
So a "dip blue" means some of the parts were originally straw-colored, not blued, correct?

The bore is in the shape you'd expect based on the rest of the gun. Good, no pitting.

Thanks again!

Edward Tinker · 09-06-2006, 05:19 PM

The "x" is not always there, but is there enough to call it a russian captured and then put away for storage luger.

The dip blue is how they kept them after capture. Although, I have heard two stories, the captured guns were immersed in oil and were dip blued prior to sending over to the USA (to make them all look nicer). @nd theory is the first one, fast blued (i.e. dipped) rather than a full rearsenal reblue, which is what I beleive was more common for the east german lugers.

Ed

pipeman45 · 09-06-2006, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by glenn_r
You are all an amazing resource. I appreciate all the responses. Of course, now I have even more questions

Is the "X" ID'ing this as a "Russian capture" on the left or right when looking down the sights?

What is the non-matching piece on the exterior?

So a "dip blue" means some of the parts were originally straw-colored, not blued, correct?

The bore is in the shape you'd expect based on the rest of the gun. Good, no pitting.

Thanks again!

The X is on the right
The non matching piece that I can see is the extractor
Yes it was dip blued and some of the small parts should be strawed

policeluger · 09-06-2006, 10:51 PM

Didn't someone call this gun what it is right off the bat here?? oh well Ed, it always good to hear from you.....best to Terry!

Dok · 09-10-2006, 01:52 PM

Glen,

You might want to have a look and see if it has a VoPo stamp anywhere.

As Ron pointed out, some of the Russian Captures actually saw service in the East German Police (VoPo), and many have the small stamp shown. Mine is located on the left front frame, above the take down lever. I see a mark on yours but cannot make out what it is.

Dok

Lugerdoc · 09-10-2006, 07:13 PM

About all I can tell from the photo, is that the PO8 has been dipped, new DDR mag & grips install. If the barrel has a C/N on the bottom, it too is a DDR replacement. Just because the receiver has a notch forward of the date, does not prove that it was ever a LPO8 (Artillery Model). Erfurt used up it's left over (from 1914 LPO8 production) notched receivers on some of their 1916-1918 standard PO8s. TH

glenn_r · 09-13-2006, 11:06 AM

Here's the front of the frame. I can't find the designated VoPo stamping anywhere, but I haven't field-stripped the pistol.

09-05-2006, 07:56 PM	#1
glenn_r User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: WI Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	OK, what do I have? Although I have a C&R license, I'm a Luger imbecile, having spent most of my time with US weapons. While at a recent class, I was offered this Luger for what I thought was a very fair price and made the impulse buy. Though the grips look to be micarta (), the rest of the gun looks in great shape, and it flawlessly fired the 6 FMJ rounds I ran through it while inspecting it. Can anyone give me a summary of what I have, an educated guess about whether it appears to have been refinished, and what a fair valuation would be? Also, is there a longer serial number somewhere? A 3-digit serial number seems way too short. I really appreciate the help! Links to larger, more detailed pics: Left front Left rear Right side Top of receiver Bottom of barrel (import marks??)

09-05-2006, 11:39 PM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Glenn, My guess would be an East German VOPO Volkspolizei (Peoples Police). Russian capture Lugers almost always have a large X stamped near the serial number on the left signifying crossed rifles, a Russian acceptance mark. This is a very nice example compared to most VOPOs or even Russian captures. Incidently, "Russian Capture" doesn't necessarily mean that it was captured in battle, but could mean captured stores or manufacturing facilities. As in captured in quantity from storage or armories when Germany was over run. Some collectors, myself included, feel that the VOPOs are sleepers and will become collectable in their own right eventually. Just my input, for what it's worth... Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-06-2006, 02:00 PM	#9
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Well it has VOPO grips on it but we would need to see close up shots of ALL the markings to tell for sure. Thats top,bottom,both sides,under the barrel,and even inside the frame.About all I can say at this point is. Thats not a bad looking Luger you have there! Well I looked at the pics and it is a Russian Capture. The X on the left rear is the mark that they put on them. It looks like a very nice shooter. With only one piece not matching on the exterior and a dip blue. I have a 1940/42 in about the same condition and I love it.It looks good and I can shoot it all day not having to worry about breaking a matching part. I would like to know what condition is the bore and how much did you have to give for it? __________________ Dave

09-06-2006, 05:19 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	The "x" is not always there, but is there enough to call it a russian captured and then put away for storage luger. The dip blue is how they kept them after capture. Although, I have heard two stories, the captured guns were immersed in oil and were dip blued prior to sending over to the USA (to make them all look nicer). @nd theory is the first one, fast blued (i.e. dipped) rather than a full rearsenal reblue, which is what I beleive was more common for the east german lugers. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-10-2006, 01:52 PM	#14
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Glen, You might want to have a look and see if it has a VoPo stamp anywhere. As Ron pointed out, some of the Russian Captures actually saw service in the East German Police (VoPo), and many have the small stamp shown. Mine is located on the left front frame, above the take down lever. I see a mark on yours but cannot make out what it is. Dok __________________ You can never be too rich; too thin; or too well armed! http://www.centercustomcases.com/

09-05-2006, 08:00 PM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	It is a Russian rework/rebuilt...the bulls eye target on the grips is the give away...dip blued small parts, should be straw colored....still I bet a good shooter...and yes import marked.

09-05-2006, 08:33 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Glenn, welcome to the forum! Although a reblue and all, we can figure out its original info. We would need a lot more information than you didn't give us Serial number, including suffix, year, toggle marking, proofs, acceptance markings etc. Yes, a 3 digit is acceptable, thus the reason for the suffix on the front of the frame, if it has no suffix, then it was the xxx made that "year", although there are exceptions to this, and as I said, we need a lot more information. OOPS, sorry Glenn, missed the pictures at the bottom, I usually look for pictures posted here, not picture bucket or whatever it is called It is a 1917 DWM, so suffix depends on when it was made, if only a 3 digit, then it was made the first week or so in 1917, if with a suffix, then every 10k the number started over with a new suffix. Ed

09-05-2006, 08:47 PM	#4
glenn_r User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: WI Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	There's an italicized "i" on the front of the frame, but except for that, all the markings on the exterior of the pistol are shown in the linked photographs at the bottom of my first post. Is there somewhere on the gun I should more carefully inspect that isn't shown in those photos? I suppose it's too much to hope for, but is there any record of what serial numbers were issued to what units? It's very interesting that this is a Russian-capture, because my mother's brother was killed fighting outside Stalingrad. It's a million-to-one shot, but if there's a record of what units were issued what guns... Thanks for the help thus far! I sincerely appreciate it.

09-05-2006, 08:51 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	See above, I missed your pictures. VERY seldom is info found to point to a unit, it would need to be unit marked (obvious if done on the front gripstrap usually), or you knew who captured it and from whom, so no, almost no way to find out. NOTE: Although a "giveaway" having either the east german or the russian capture grips, I always check each gun out, as they are only grips and could be swapped out by someone who "liked" the grips. A pair of krieghoff grips donna make a krieghoff Ed

09-05-2006, 11:13 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	The notch cut into the front of the receiver at the top indicates that this gun was origianlly an Artillery model. --Dwight

09-06-2006, 12:48 PM	#8
glenn_r User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: WI Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Fantastic information, thanks. Is there an on-line history I could read covering these VOPOs? Were they imported en-masse recently? What's the approximate value of this thing? thanks again!

09-06-2006, 10:51 PM	#13
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Didn't someone call this gun what it is right off the bat here?? oh well Ed, it always good to hear from you.....best to Terry!

09-10-2006, 07:13 PM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	About all I can tell from the photo, is that the PO8 has been dipped, new DDR mag & grips install. If the barrel has a C/N on the bottom, it too is a DDR replacement. Just because the receiver has a notch forward of the date, does not prove that it was ever a LPO8 (Artillery Model). Erfurt used up it's left over (from 1914 LPO8 production) notched receivers on some of their 1916-1918 standard PO8s. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

09-13-2006, 11:06 AM	#16
glenn_r User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: WI Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here's the front of the frame. I can't find the designated VoPo stamping anywhere, but I haven't field-stripped the pistol.