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Unread 12-12-2004, 03:10 PM   #1
P. J. Heck
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Post S date and extra mags to sell/trade

I have recently gotten an excellent S date #3982 (know that I am supposed to post photos and I will when I am sure I am smarter than this camera I just bought) and find my self with two extra mags. If one of these is for your gun, let me know or if you know of either gun for sale let me know also. #3847, high very good, #1894, many small dents in bottom and one in side. No prices as these will only be available to their respective guns...............
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Unread 12-12-2004, 05:33 PM   #2
Pete Ebbink
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Hi PJ,

In reply to your PM to me,

1. Here is the link to the Germany web site selling the HK's :

http://www.collector-arms.de

2. A word of caution is in order especially with internet sales across country lines and especially across the "pond" (i.e Atlantic Ocean).

You need to ensure the outfit with any web site is legitimate and will actually send you a pistol once you send money. This outfit has a "kontact" link so you can call them in person and ask for any info. that should convince you they are a real business.

You need to get their inspection and return policy in writing and in detail. Importing into the USA will add another $ 400-500 or so to the price of a gun and the USA importer is required to stamp their company info...somewhere on the gun. Some collectors see this stamping as diminishing a piece's value.

Formulate a list of 15-30 quesitons about a specific gun and aks them to reply in writing before going forward and sending money.

With the exchange rate as it is now...I am not convinced this would be the best time for an American to make a big dollar purchse...just my opinion, though.

If for some reason you decide to return the gun, you loose your importation costs and you might even need to pay the return, exportation costs...

3. Unless a piece is very rare and cannot be found in the USA, I would only buy from someone I know personally, or let a friend in Germany handle the sale for you...at least the part where a friend knows what to look for to make sure the gun is all original, factory finish, and not messed with. If those conditions could not be met, I would keep my money in the USA and keep looking.

4. To read your Private Messages, click on the word tag that reads as "My Profile" on the main opening page of the Luger Forum. You will see your PM's there...and you click on them from there.

5. My email address is "pebbink@pacbell.net" if you want to reach me off-forum.

Regards,

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Unread 12-12-2004, 11:50 PM   #3
P. J. Heck
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I have concluded that the only way to get a Luger in Germany is to go there and buy it. My highway maps dont show the way. (meant to be humorus!!!!!!) There used to be a stipulation on visas that allowed one gun per person to come back. Is that still valid information??????? I have located a 1936 nearby. Your opinion on price, honest strong 95% gun????? Also has a 1902 fat barrel that may be just a tad better. Your opinion again??????? I have a 1940 serial range Krieghoff 'commercial', #10678 P. Suspect since finish and straw are nearly perfect that it is redone but has fooled several if so, bright bore and match mag. Will photo when I have mastered camera.
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Unread 12-13-2004, 12:28 AM   #4
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Heck, Lugers can get you burned bad. Especially the high end that you are trying to obtain.

Let me be very honest with you;

Buy these high end guns from famous collectors or VERY reputable dealers. Don't buy them from just anybody.

You CAN NOT buy guns overseas without going the legal route. I do not believe you can buy something legally and bring it back with you.

I simply do not think it is worth it to buy lugers overseas, not when so many thousands of legal lugers are here in America??

Ed
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Unread 12-13-2004, 09:19 AM   #5
P. J. Heck
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Ed, above guns for opinion are from nationally known, respected Luger dealer who is seen at gun shows and has a facility that can be visited. I am scheduled for some surgical proceedures this month, hopefully cath/stent also, and will visit above mentioned dealer after or between. Wife has expressed interest in having Persian Artillery. List containing French stuff has all 3 persians on but I am very leery as you can imagine. Another on this site is apparently in Ca and has expressed interest in a follow through visit to look at some of interest to him and at the Persians. Visiting Germany is an old 'want to' for me.
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Unread 12-13-2004, 09:51 AM   #6
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Well, that sounds good. Yes, Germany is a great place, I loved living adjacent to it. I would go when they have their big gunshows, unsure of the dates, I think in Feb or March? Then you'd be able to know and meet people who could legally transfer something for you,

Ed
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Unread 12-13-2004, 11:02 AM   #7
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One thing I believe Pete is mistaken on importing a Luger is the expense and the stamping. I tried to purchase a Luger from Canada about three months ago and checked into the legalities with ATF. Lugers can be imported by an individual to a licensed FFL using the appropriate ATF Form (not sure number right now). I was told there was no fee required. After completion, your FFL submits the form for approval. Once approved, the approved form is sent overseas to the seller, who then ships the Luger back through to the US. The approved form is basically attached to the gun and that allows the gun to clear customs. THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT TO IMPORT MARK A GUN IMPORTED IN THIS MANNER NOR TO USE A LICENSED IMPORTER. The entire process takes from 2-6 months from what I was told. The form is available off the ATF website and has instructions on how to complete and submit.
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Unread 12-13-2004, 12:39 PM   #8
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Hi Malcolm,

My experience in looking into bringing Swiss lugers in from Switzerland over 1 year ago were the following...maybe between USA and Canada the reg's are different...(???) :

1. BATF regulations still required import stamping of the gun. See the following on their web site :

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmsimpreststamps.pdf

2. I got a price from Simpsons LTD and also from a gal in Texas (cannot remember the outfit's name...). Their importation fees were somewaht based on value of the piece...but I was looking at $ 350-400 on this side.

3. There are also some "exportation" fees unique to Switzerland that I would typically absorb in the selling price of the gun as well.

Starting with the lower prices of luger in CH but then adding all the monies involved, most costs to me were about the same as USA pricing of Swiss lugers and then I could at least find a luger in the USA that came into the country before 1968 and would not get import stamped.

p.s. I have heard of some recent lugers coming into the USA from Canada that, for whatever reason, did not get import stamps applied. That sort of transaction would make me a bit nervous unless I look into the matter in more detail and confirmed with our BATF that this was allowed between the USA and canada...

I could be all wrong here and may have "old" info. from a year or so ago...but that is what I think I know..



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Unread 12-13-2004, 03:43 PM   #9
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Pete,

As I understand the situation, private citizens can import firearms without an import mark doing it through a dealer that does not routinely handle imports. Simpson's, from what I understand, is a licensed importer, so any firearms imported through them must have be marked. May be the same for the Texas company.

I discussed this with Jimmy Streetman at Arsenal USA when I looked into importing the Luger, because I know they are a licensed importer. He suggested going the private route through an unlicensed importer to avoid the import marks and other hassles that a licensed importer has to comply with.

I discussed all this with the seller as well, and he confirmed that all he needed was the approved ATF Form 6. He had exported a number of Lugers to the USA, and he did not have to mark the Luger nor was there a requirement to mark the Luger upon receipt.

The form to use is the ATF Form 6 [http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53303a.pdf]. If this helps you get in a Swiss Luger, I would love the opportunity to get one myself!

Anyone use this procedure to import a Luger?

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Unread 12-13-2004, 04:17 PM   #10
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http://www.atf.gov/firearms/feib/guidebook/FEIB-GB.pdf

See page 3:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">A Federally Licensed firearms collector may obtain a permit for an occasional importation of C&R only for his personal collection without becoming licensed and registered as an importer. However, a licensed collector may NOT import surplus military C&R or non sporting firearms.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">See page 19:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Pursuant to 18 U.S.C.... ONLY FFLs types 08 or 11 importers may import surplus military C&R (and they use the Luger and the Mauser Model 98 as examples)...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I don't see anywhere in the regulation, where a weapon is NOT stamped?

Ed
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Unread 12-13-2004, 04:51 PM   #11
Pete Ebbink
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Thanks Malcolm and Ed...

Learned something new today...appreciate your help... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

For most Ordnance Swiss lugers, I guess I am out of luck...but maybe I can find a nice commercial Swiss luger one day to bring in...

Regards,

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Unread 12-14-2004, 01:50 PM   #12
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Dear Mr. Heck,

Based on my experience with buying collector items in Germany and importing them into the US, this is the best advice I can give you:

1) C&R pistols which are commercial models can be imported by any dealer in the US with an approved ATF From 6;

2) There are no fees required to obtain the BATF permit for commercial pistols and they do not need to be stamped once they enter the US.

3) On the other hand, Military C&R pistols must be imported by a Licensed Importer, and there is a possibility that the pistol will need to be stamped by the dealer.

I am very well acquainted with Collector Arms in Germany who helps me with export permits. They are very honest and reputable dealers. If you buy any pistol from them, they can obtain a German export permit very quickly, in about 2-3 weeks. They only ask for an end-user certificate which is submitted with the export permit application. It is impossible to leave Germany with a pistol in your suitcase unless you have an export permit. Even if you are a US citizen or resident, you cannot enter the US today without a import permit from the BATF. The procedure is not difficult unless you do it right. Believe it or not, the longest delays are on the US side!

When a gun is imported in the US which is LESS than 100 years old, US Customs will charge you a 10% import duty.

If you need additional information and wish to contact me, please send me an e-mail at imperialarms@att.net.

Season greetings,
Albert
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Unread 12-17-2004, 09:38 PM   #13
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Some real good words of wisdom here.
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