.45 Confusion

Greg · 04-29-2002, 07:11 PM

Okay guys, I'm really confused now (not a unique state for me). Prior to Ralph's recent revelation, how many .45 Lugers have actually been accounted for? Is the one that sold awhile back for close to a million dollars (and was featured in Guns & Ammo magazine and in Tales of the Gun video) the same gun in a museum in Louisiana?

04-29-2002, 07:27 PM

now there are three.

There is some controversy on that, the G&A article stated there is one .45, several board members have seen the one in Louisianna, so that makes trwo, since they are different serial numbers. YThey are # 1 & 2.

Which in some regards doesn't mean much, since Lugers had new numbers all the time. The Dutch insisted on having their guns (mostly) consecutive, while many Lugers for diff countries had numbers that jumped around a bit.

Ed

Ron Wood · 04-29-2002, 07:42 PM

Your confusion is understandable. Over the years, many ".45 Luger" stories have been told. It is a long way from being resolved but as I understand it, there are two verifiable .45 caliber Lugers in existence (with Ralph's being a third and exciting addition!). Serial number 2 is in a private collection (the former Sid Aberman Luger as featured in Guns & Ammo), an un-numbered and Crown/N proofed example is in the museum collection in Louisiana. Serial number 1 was presumably destroyed during the US test trials. Rumors of serial number 5 have been around for quite some time, but no tangible evidence has been forthcoming.

Greg · 04-29-2002, 08:08 PM

Thanks for the clarifications. Is there any documentation in existance suggesting why the one in Louisiana was unnumbered? Was it supposedly part of the trials?

Ron Wood · 04-29-2002, 09:52 PM

No documentation that I am aware of. It could be argued that it is a tool room prototype that may have preceeded the two test examples, but who knows? There is no information as far as I know that would tie it to the US trials.

Dwight Gruber · 04-29-2002, 11:43 PM

Whats the serial number on the carbine?

--Dwight

Johnny Peppers · 04-29-2002, 11:43 PM

It is the opinion of some that the pistol in the Norton Gallery in Shreveport was the prototype of the two trials pistols. It is un-numbered but the magazine is suppose to have a 3 on it, but not on the wood base. The C/N proof would seem to indicate that the pistol was sold at a later date.

According to several collectors, the pistol came out of Canada some 40 years ago, and had tentatively been bought by Carl Wilson for $4000. When Carl and the owner met, the price had gone up to $5000; so Carl Wilson did not buy the pistol. Harry Jones purchased the pistol for $5000 and in less than a month had sold it to Mr. Norton for $10,000. If I remember correctly it was Joe Schroeder that appraised the big Luger for the Norton Gallery, and had permission to photograph the pistol in detail, but didn't. Carl Wilson was the owner of the "Baby" about this same time frame.

Dwight Gruber · 04-29-2002, 11:43 PM

Whats the serial number on the carbine?

--Dwight

John Sabato · 04-30-2002, 02:19 AM

hasn;t been revealed yet... I am sure Ralph will reveal it at a time convenient to him... we will all just have to wait.

I think that we (the Lugerforum) can consider ourselves very fortunate that Ralph permitted Ed Tinker to photograph this gun and that the first public photographs of this unique weapon were published here on our site!

regards,

John Sabato

schwob · 04-30-2002, 08:53 PM

John, I agree completely with your observation. We are all fortunate to have what we have in magnificent weapons and the knowledge to back up our collecting & collections.

04-29-2002, 07:11 PM	#1
Greg User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southern U.S. Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	.45 Confusion Okay guys, I'm really confused now (not a unique state for me). Prior to Ralph's recent revelation, how many .45 Lugers have actually been accounted for? Is the one that sold awhile back for close to a million dollars (and was featured in Guns & Ammo magazine and in Tales of the Gun video) the same gun in a museum in Louisiana?

04-29-2002, 07:27 PM	#2
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	As of the other day, there were two now there are three. There is some controversy on that, the G&A article stated there is one .45, several board members have seen the one in Louisianna, so that makes trwo, since they are different serial numbers. YThey are # 1 & 2. Which in some regards doesn't mean much, since Lugers had new numbers all the time. The Dutch insisted on having their guns (mostly) consecutive, while many Lugers for diff countries had numbers that jumped around a bit. Ed

04-29-2002, 07:42 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Re: .45 Confusion Your confusion is understandable. Over the years, many ".45 Luger" stories have been told. It is a long way from being resolved but as I understand it, there are two verifiable .45 caliber Lugers in existence (with Ralph's being a third and exciting addition!). Serial number 2 is in a private collection (the former Sid Aberman Luger as featured in Guns & Ammo), an un-numbered and Crown/N proofed example is in the museum collection in Louisiana. Serial number 1 was presumably destroyed during the US test trials. Rumors of serial number 5 have been around for quite some time, but no tangible evidence has been forthcoming.

04-29-2002, 08:08 PM	#4
Greg User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southern U.S. Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: .45 Confusion Thanks for the clarifications. Is there any documentation in existance suggesting why the one in Louisiana was unnumbered? Was it supposedly part of the trials?

04-29-2002, 09:52 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Re: .45 Confusion No documentation that I am aware of. It could be argued that it is a tool room prototype that may have preceeded the two test examples, but who knows? There is no information as far as I know that would tie it to the US trials.

04-29-2002, 11:43 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	Re: .45 Confusion Whats the serial number on the carbine? --Dwight

04-29-2002, 11:43 PM	#7
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: .45 Confusion It is the opinion of some that the pistol in the Norton Gallery in Shreveport was the prototype of the two trials pistols. It is un-numbered but the magazine is suppose to have a 3 on it, but not on the wood base. The C/N proof would seem to indicate that the pistol was sold at a later date. According to several collectors, the pistol came out of Canada some 40 years ago, and had tentatively been bought by Carl Wilson for $4000. When Carl and the owner met, the price had gone up to $5000; so Carl Wilson did not buy the pistol. Harry Jones purchased the pistol for $5000 and in less than a month had sold it to Mr. Norton for $10,000. If I remember correctly it was Joe Schroeder that appraised the big Luger for the Norton Gallery, and had permission to photograph the pistol in detail, but didn't. Carl Wilson was the owner of the "Baby" about this same time frame.

04-30-2002, 02:19 AM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	The serial number of the carbine hasn;t been revealed yet... I am sure Ralph will reveal it at a time convenient to him... we will all just have to wait. I think that we (the Lugerforum) can consider ourselves very fortunate that Ralph permitted Ed Tinker to photograph this gun and that the first public photographs of this unique weapon were published here on our site! regards, John Sabato

04-30-2002, 08:53 PM	#10
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: The serial number of the carbine John, I agree completely with your observation. We are all fortunate to have what we have in magnificent weapons and the knowledge to back up our collecting & collections.