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Unread 09-30-2022, 12:48 PM   #1
Mibit911
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Default Byf 41 all matchinf?

So I have a byf 41 luger with all parts matching except for the toggle pin. I was told the gun was all matching when I got it and inspected every part according to a list I read. All parts match except there is no stamp visible on rear toggle pin? Is this normal or is the gun non matching? If not I might have some words with the dealer. Also this dealer is been in buisness 40 years and has sold me alot of guns all of which have usually checked out. So I'm a bit worried.
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Unread 09-30-2022, 05:56 PM   #2
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Hallock and Kant says the 41 byf (and 42) should have a numbered rear axel pin (p. 242).

They described small parts in 4 groups:

Group 1: Trigger, Safety Lever, Takedown lever, Hold Open, Rear axle pin, Side plate, Sear bar, Front toggle link, and Rear toggle link.

Group 2: Magazine release and Ejector spring

Group 3: Firing pin (flutted)

Group 4: Coupling link
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Last edited by Mac Cat; 09-30-2022 at 05:56 PM. Reason: spelling
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Unread 10-01-2022, 12:14 PM   #3
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I would not worry too much. But try to get a discount.

Unnumbered pins are not uncommon and sometimes you find nice replacements:
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Unread 10-01-2022, 05:21 PM   #4
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Well see the problem is I was told the gun was matching qhen I got it. He told me not to worry about it sometimes stamps got skipped on toggles and other parts just check the Jan luger forums they would know. And I said I did already and he was not willing to discount any future purchases or anything even though I've done alot of buisness with this guy. So now idk how to feel.
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Unread 10-01-2022, 05:22 PM   #5
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Everything else matches and it's a nice blackwidow with bakelite grips and shoots perfect but that toggle pin issue now makes me feel a bit wronged
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Unread 10-01-2022, 05:23 PM   #6
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The other code 42 he had that I looked at is also marked as all matching and it's toggle is stamped. This was the other gun I was co.paring against when I purchased this luger, but I went with the byf 41 instead for 200 more than the Russian captured x marked 42
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Unread 10-01-2022, 05:28 PM   #7
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It all depends a bit on what you paid for it.
There is no such thing as a Black Widow. Just a marketing ploy to sell lugers with black plastic grips, which is all they are.
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Unread 10-01-2022, 07:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlim View Post
It all depends a bit on what you paid for it.
There is no such thing as a Black Widow. Just a marketing ploy to sell lugers with black plastic grips, which is all they are.
Vlim is correct about the "Black Widow" term. It was invented by a well known Luger collector and salesman named Ralph Shattock many years ago because the plastic grip Mauser Lugers weren't selling. The name caught on and now the black plastic grips are desirable to some people. The name has no basis in fact.
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Unread 10-01-2022, 11:56 PM   #9
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You did OK. The un-numbered toggle pin isn't really that big of a deal. They were replaced on occasion. Don't stress over it. Enjoy the gun, it looks pretty good to me. And, in the end, you have learned something. The knowledge is just as valuable as the gun. You can ask on the "wanted" forum and see if someone has a matching numbered axle pin. 1 in 100 chance. Pretty good odds, really.
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Unread 10-02-2022, 10:48 AM   #10
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I am curious about the grips though. And I thought black widow also was used because byf 41 and 42 have no visible parts in the white
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Unread 10-02-2022, 10:50 AM   #11
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Iran the gun has a shiny unputted bore and has shot 100 rounds with no malfunctions so it's a great shooter, except for the slightly squishy trigger, it has no import marks and is an early q block, but I'm not sure about the vertical black grips I think they are Russian. IT is original bluing with oxidation visible under bright light and I paid 1600. It was my first luger but having learned alot more now im sure I paid too much. Although I'm happy with the gun
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Unread 10-02-2022, 10:53 AM   #12
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There is no Russian captured marks or force matched parts except for the unmarked toggle pin which I guess could be factory original that missed stamping, but that's very unlikely. The pin is a nice snug perfect fit not too tight and doesn't fall out either.
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Unread 10-02-2022, 10:59 AM   #13
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I think you overpaid for what is basically a reblued Eastern European capture gun with Russian grips.

A more realistic value would be 1000 to 1200 these days.
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Unread 10-02-2022, 01:48 PM   #14
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A pin with the number is one of the easier numbered part you can find. But the dealer refusing to help?

How long has it been since you bought it?
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Unread 10-02-2022, 02:01 PM   #15
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Hopefully your gun dealer will do you better, next time.
Your luger sounds like a good shooter, so enjoy it and learn a lot from it.
Don't buy into the "Black Widow" nonsense - very common and always overpriced.
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Unread 10-02-2022, 09:16 PM   #16
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When I decide to acquire a Luger my primary concern is 'do I love this gun ??' ... once I can answer that question with a yes then I ask can I live with its cost ??

I am 71 years old and I don't have all my OEM parts so I don't get bent out of shape if a 100 yr old + pistol has seen some rough days too. To me that's life and I don't have the time, energy and $$ to find that 'perfect' gun that most likely doesn't exist anyway.

Our hobby attracts all sorts but I am so glad that my collecting motives are simple and pure ... that is to say the enjoyment of admiring the beautiful work of brilliantly conceived engineering art that is 'The Luger'.

I love a numbers matching gun as well as the next man but it doesn't dictate whether I can truly enjoy the gun or not ... its the beauty I collect not the 'bragging rights'. I don't concern myself with the 'what's it worth' routine either because in truth a gun is worth what any man is willing to pay for it.

Luger's are a gift from the creator IMO as each has an individual soul in its own right and like our own fingerprints may change over time while remaining true to that individual soul.

Many of us here @ lugerforum speak of our collections as family and I cherish my 'family' whether the toggle pin is marked or not.
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Unread 10-08-2022, 11:40 AM   #17
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It certainly is a lot prettier than mine. With the way that pin comes out, I can easily see having to have a few replacements around. It wouldn't surprise me to find out many Lugers have either mis-matched or missing numbers on that pin.
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Unread 10-09-2022, 10:49 AM   #18
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Your dealer helps prove the motto, "believe the gun, forget the story"...

It takes time to develop background and skill when collecting Lugers. The best approach is to start by acquiring the latest and most comprehensive books. I help here by publishing our FAQ PDF document, free to download and full of good reference information.

Your dealer is selling his stock, not reflecting information known by collectors that have studied Lugers.
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Unread 01-28-2023, 02:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spangy View Post
When I decide to acquire a Luger my primary concern is 'do I love this gun ??' ... once I can answer that question with a yes then I ask can I live with its cost ??

I am 71 years old and I don't have all my OEM parts so I don't get bent out of shape if a 100 yr old + pistol has seen some rough days too. To me that's life and I don't have the time, energy and $$ to find that 'perfect' gun that most likely doesn't exist anyway.

Our hobby attracts all sorts but I am so glad that my collecting motives are simple and pure ... that is to say the enjoyment of admiring the beautiful work of brilliantly conceived engineering art that is 'The Luger'.

I love a numbers matching gun as well as the next man but it doesn't dictate whether I can truly enjoy the gun or not ... its the beauty I collect not the 'bragging rights'. I don't concern myself with the 'what's it worth' routine either because in truth a gun is worth what any man is willing to pay for it.

Luger's are a gift from the creator IMO as each has an individual soul in its own right and like our own fingerprints may change over time while remaining true to that individual soul.

Many of us here @ lugerforum speak of our collections as family and I cherish my 'family' whether the toggle pin is marked or not.
Sorry,

I don't agree with this "logic" at all!!

I agree with exactly what Vlim said.

I think the buyer was a victim of fraud in the inducement and should demand a proportionate refund based on actual fair market value.

Any other "logic" seems to me to be lacking in reality.

I have been victimized, on more than one occasion, when buying used firearms. Letting the thief get away with it will only embolden his activity more!!


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Unread 01-29-2023, 11:48 AM   #20
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It's a nice looking gun. I have one that's the same, but the axle pin does match. If anyone has any in the same condition I have that 1000 - 1200 ready to spend !
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