Other Borchardt-Luger Pistols...?

Pete Ebbink · 02-01-2003, 10:20 AM

Just wanted to know what other 1898 Borchardt-Luger transitional pistols may exist that preceeded the pistols # 5 and # 6, now in Switzerland ?

Were there B-L's pistols numbered # 1, 2, 3, and 4 ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Herb · 02-01-2003, 01:41 PM

Pete, if you have Harry Jone's book Luger Variations with color additions, on the first page is a photo of one, serial # not mentioned but the toggle has the stamping "system borchardt-luger". The info says Erste originalpistole (baujahr 1899). I suppose this might be the first one produced. Interesting you made this posting, I was just re-reading his book today.

Ron Wood · 02-01-2003, 02:27 PM

Lugers 1 thru 4 would have been of 1898 or earlier construction. The one in Jones' book is an 1899 or variant thereof. It has the square toggle link hinge of the very early pre-production Lugers, and does not have the removable frame plate, reinforced toggle and top pivoting safety of numbers 5 & 6. It has no serial number or other markings except the inscription on the forward toggle link.

The whereabouts of 1 thru 4 is unknown. Very likely they were hand built prototypes and could well have been returned to the tool room for further modification/experimentation (just as number 6) and eventually scrapped. BUT, if any of them turns up, and is authentic, it would be a significant collecting event.

Imperial Arms · 02-01-2003, 02:59 PM

Hello Pete,

I cannot tell you much about serial #1-#4, but there are four pistols (serial #V1-#V7) in the Bern Museum which contain upper receivers from the 1899 Test Lugers serial #11-#29. These V-suffix Lugers, reaching the final weight of approximately 850g, probably reflect the serial range of the 20 pistols that were used in the second trails of 1899. One of the Lugers which was in the same serial range is serial #19 which used to be in the Thun Museum until it 'disappeared'.

These 20 1899 Lugers still had the square toggle link in the same manner as the two 1898 Borchardt-Lugers, but it was reinforced just behind the toggle.

If we were to wonder if there were any other B-L before serial #5, I would take a wild guess and assume that serial #4 could exist. I imagine that serial #1-#3 could have been in-house DWM prototypes (in the white) that were heavily tested and discarded, or maybe a member of the Loewe family (who actually owned the DWM and Mauser factories) was given one by Georg Luger before serial #5 and #6 went to Switzerland for Trials.

Let us dream on and hope that one of these genuine Lugers would surface in the future!

Cheers,
Albert

Pete Ebbink · 02-01-2003, 06:44 PM

Thanks all for your replies...

Albert, if anyone can find a B-L pistol serial # 4, I have no doubt you will some day...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 02-16-2003, 06:05 PM

Herb,

I just re-read in my John Walter book, The Luger Story, that this "Erste Originalpistole" that was photographed and described in the 1975 revision of the Jones' book was very controversial when the gun surfaced.

The claim that this was the "first" B-L pistol, according to Walter, was not well documented, and he concluded this pistol may have been a later pistol (i.e. after the 1898 and 1899 B-L's...).

The pistol's toggle grips with their singular annular rib were very simplistic to manufacture and Walter surmised they might have been replacements in the DWM factory in the early 1900's.

As I read Walter's paragraphs, I got the feeling he was not backing up his conclusions with any other documentation or other references...maybe just his professional opinions...

Do any of our Luger Forum members recall more details from the 1975's when this "Erste Originalpistole" first surfaced ?

Where did this pistol come from ?

What was its chain of ownership ?

Is this pistol described in any surviving DWM records ?

Who owns the pistol nowdays ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-01-2003, 10:20 AM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Other Borchardt-Luger Pistols...? Just wanted to know what other 1898 Borchardt-Luger transitional pistols may exist that preceeded the pistols # 5 and # 6, now in Switzerland ? Were there B-L's pistols numbered # 1, 2, 3, and 4 ? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-01-2003, 01:41 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, if you have Harry Jone's book Luger Variations with color additions, on the first page is a photo of one, serial # not mentioned but the toggle has the stamping "system borchardt-luger". The info says Erste originalpistole (baujahr 1899). I suppose this might be the first one produced. Interesting you made this posting, I was just re-reading his book today. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

02-01-2003, 02:27 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Lugers 1 thru 4 would have been of 1898 or earlier construction. The one in Jones' book is an 1899 or variant thereof. It has the square toggle link hinge of the very early pre-production Lugers, and does not have the removable frame plate, reinforced toggle and top pivoting safety of numbers 5 & 6. It has no serial number or other markings except the inscription on the forward toggle link. The whereabouts of 1 thru 4 is unknown. Very likely they were hand built prototypes and could well have been returned to the tool room for further modification/experimentation (just as number 6) and eventually scrapped. BUT, if any of them turns up, and is authentic, it would be a significant collecting event. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-01-2003, 02:59 PM	#4
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Pete, I cannot tell you much about serial #1-#4, but there are four pistols (serial #V1-#V7) in the Bern Museum which contain upper receivers from the 1899 Test Lugers serial #11-#29. These V-suffix Lugers, reaching the final weight of approximately 850g, probably reflect the serial range of the 20 pistols that were used in the second trails of 1899. One of the Lugers which was in the same serial range is serial #19 which used to be in the Thun Museum until it 'disappeared'. These 20 1899 Lugers still had the square toggle link in the same manner as the two 1898 Borchardt-Lugers, but it was reinforced just behind the toggle. If we were to wonder if there were any other B-L before serial #5, I would take a wild guess and assume that serial #4 could exist. I imagine that serial #1-#3 could have been in-house DWM prototypes (in the white) that were heavily tested and discarded, or maybe a member of the Loewe family (who actually owned the DWM and Mauser factories) was given one by Georg Luger before serial #5 and #6 went to Switzerland for Trials. Let us dream on and hope that one of these genuine Lugers would surface in the future! Cheers, Albert

02-01-2003, 06:44 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks all for your replies... Albert, if anyone can find a B-L pistol serial # 4, I have no doubt you will some day... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-16-2003, 06:05 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Herb, I just re-read in my John Walter book, The Luger Story, that this "Erste Originalpistole" that was photographed and described in the 1975 revision of the Jones' book was very controversial when the gun surfaced. The claim that this was the "first" B-L pistol, according to Walter, was not well documented, and he concluded this pistol may have been a later pistol (i.e. after the 1898 and 1899 B-L's...). The pistol's toggle grips with their singular annular rib were very simplistic to manufacture and Walter surmised they might have been replacements in the DWM factory in the early 1900's. As I read Walter's paragraphs, I got the feeling he was not backing up his conclusions with any other documentation or other references...maybe just his professional opinions... Do any of our Luger Forum members recall more details from the 1975's when this "Erste Originalpistole" first surfaced ? Where did this pistol come from ? What was its chain of ownership ? Is this pistol described in any surviving DWM records ? Who owns the pistol nowdays ? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />