Basel Police Luger ?

Carl · 07-19-2002, 11:53 PM

I bought this Luger at a local auction about three years ago. It belonged to a woman whose husband had passed away. I asked her where it came from, she said her brother had given it to her husband when he came home from WW2. Her husband was in the Pacific and her brother was in Europe. Description: DWM, 1920 on breach (origional date removed), 4" barrel, no proofs on right frame (removed), lazy n proof on left frame, N proof on barrel, serial no. 95540 on barrel and front frame and left side frame above lazy N, sear safety. The clip is extruded type marked 122 E/37 with alumimun base serialed 2116 k. He brought it home in a brown sholder holster.

Doubs · 07-20-2002, 12:23 AM

Carl, your Luger carries a commercial five digit serial number that places production in the Weimar period. It falls outside the Basil serial number range. The sear safety indicates that it was produced as a police gun and the date is likely the original, meaning that 1920 is the only date the receiver has ever had stamped on it. The lack of military proofs on the right receiver wall is typical of commercial pistols.

The only thing out of wack is the serial number itself. The 95,500 range is about 3,500 higher than any in the commercial range reported by Jan Still in "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers". He caps his Police pistols at about 92,000 and yours obviously is somewhat higher. The 1920 date would seem to indicate that the serial number should be lower. Perhaps Jan will read your message and give us his opinion. It sounds like a nice pistol and one you'll want to keep.

Marvin · 07-20-2002, 07:08 AM

Carl,

The pistols sounds like a nice one! In my opinion, the commercial pistol range that Jan has listed is a guide to the range and there may be some over/under those listed. Also, I feel that during the Weimar period, many commercial stamped pistols were diverted to the Police, and the commercial stamps would not have been an indication that they were destined for Government use when the Versaille Treaty checks were made at DWM.

The Sear Safety is a definite indication that the pistol was used by the Police in the Third Reich period. When the Sear safety was added, the pistol may have been reworked at the Police Arsenal. These are very interesting pistols and the price for them are still reasonable. At one time they were not considered very collectible, but this is changing in my opinion.

If you don't have a copy, get the book by Jan Still, "Weimar Lugers"; it is very good reading and full of details of this period.

Marvin

Roadkill · 07-20-2002, 08:14 AM

Marvin, Good Morning! Reference your knowledgable information on subject, the point that the firearm was used by police in the era mentioned got my attention. As usual, I'll willingly reveal the depth of my Luger expertise (about 2"). Please provide more info on police lugers. I have heard that the sear safety was often removed from the guns for military use, and that the sear safety was a definite indicator for police use. I was not aware that a sear safety could be added to a military or commercial gun for police use. And using the timeline of it was a police pistol, it was dated 1920, it was not used by the military therefore it was used by the police, is there any way of knowing what types of guns were used by what kind of police (city/state/SD)in the era referenced? Thanks for your reply in advance.
(Bottom line: I've got a 1918 police erfurt, would love know more about it)

RK

Edmond , DCB shooting · 07-20-2002, 09:33 AM

""what types of guns were used by what kind of police (city/state/SD)in the era referenced?"" too bad I did not back up all the topic we had about this subject on Gunsworld but I did some and I'll find them to avoid to type all that again and post it.. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Marvin · 07-20-2002, 10:00 AM

Roadkill,

This is sort of my opinion that the commarcial pistols that were being made during the Weimar period were being made with the use of them going to a Military/Police roll for the government. Since yours has the 1920 date, it could be the Military property stamp, but I don't think so; I think it may be the date stamp.

If the pistol was still in stock when need by the Government, the commercial would have been purchased from DWM since they could not legally manufacture military pistols. This would have been a very nice clandestined source of pistols.

Since yours does not have any Police Stamps, I would guess that it was in stock somewhere in the late 1930s and then purchased/pulled from stock for the Police in the early 1930s and then the ruling to add the Sear Safety.

As to the Sear Safety being removed from a Police pistol that went to Military duty is true as the Military did not use/like the safety. In reverse, if a Military pistol was routed back to the Police during this time, it would have Military stamps and have the Sear Safety.

This is what is so interesting about the Weimar Lugers, there are very few hard and fast rules. Most anything could have happened during those times. I have always wondered, that since the Police could purchase the pistols required, and not as closely monitored as the Military, if the POlie purchased pistols and them routed them to the Military???? The Weimars are the most difficult to understand. I read and re-read "Weimar Lugers" and get new information each time. If you have a couple of these pistols, get the book as it will help a lot and also open up more questions.

Edmond is correct that if he can find the info from Gunsworld, it would be a big help. The Weimars are just plain interesting and priced right for the new collector to start with if interested in the=is time. It covers Lugers from pre-WWI until approx. 1935 when actual large scale production from Mauser began. I wish I had the answers, but with help from other Forum members, maybe we can piece together some of the puzzle.

Marvin

Doubs · 07-20-2002, 11:59 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill:
I have heard that the sear safety was often removed from the guns for military use, and that the sear safety was a definite indicator for police use. I was not aware that a sear safety could be added to a military or commercial gun for police use. And using the timeline of it was a police pistol, it was dated 1920, it was not used by the military therefore it was used by the police, is there any way of knowing what types of guns were used by what kind of police (city/state/SD)in the era referenced? Thanks for your reply in advance.
(Bottom line: I've got a 1918 police erfurt, would love know more about it) RK<hr></blockquote>

RK, the sear safety, in conjunction with the magazine safety, is a definite indicator of police use. If you'll notice, where the sear safety exists, the lower left frame immediately above the grip and in line with the rear of the mag release will be slotted. The slot was part of the magazine safety mod and that is the one that is most often missing on police guns as they were removed or deactivated. I'm looking at my 1916 Erfurt police pistol as I type this and the slot on mine has been very professionally filled in with only a mark visable where it used to be. The mag safety had a piece of metal passing between the frame and mag release - under the grip - that prevented the trigger from being depressed all the way if the mag was out. Inserting a mag levered the metal tab out of the trigger's path, allowing full travel.

Many hundreds - if not thousands - of Imperial military Lugers were so modified after the war. The only means of identifying which police force used them is if they were stamped with police unit markings.

I agree that Jan's serial number range is only a guide and I should have made that clear in my first post. I was not suggesting that there's anything improper about the Luger in question; only that it extends the known serial number range of the commercial pistols used by police by quite a bit.

Unless your Erfurt police pistol has been stamped with unit markings, there's no way to ID who used it. Like mine, it's one that served as a police gun. They were issued to police with two mags marked on the base 1 & 2 and the serial number. My Erfurt has a mismatched mag with the number 2 on it. My East German police rework - a 1917 Erfurt - has two matching mags numbered 1 & 2.

Edward Tinker · 07-20-2002, 12:05 PM

I just asked this same type of question on Pete's scan in thread, but feel it is more relevant here:

What is the advantage to the sear safety and what is the reason the police had them and not others?

How does it comapare to the safety for the grip safeties (apples and oranges I know)?

Any indication that these were required across the board? Weren't police units separate in the different states??

Doubs · 07-20-2002, 12:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
 what is the advantage to the safety and what is the reason the police had them and not others? <hr></blockquote>

Ed, my own opinion is that magazine safeties are a solution to a non-existent problem. If I remove the mag the gun becomes a paperweight, unable to fire the round in the chamber - assuming there is one. IMO, the reason for removing the mag safety from police guns is that the powers that be came to the same conclusion.

Possibly the Germans had the same problem with their police as we have with ours now. Not all police are "gun people" or competent with firearms. So, the authorities attempt to make the gun as "idiot-proof" as possible. The sear safety was to prevent the "cannon" being fired while the sideplate was not in place or while the "cannon" was detatched from the frame.

Comsidering that the extractor serves as a loaded chamber indicator that can be both seen and felt, what idiot takes the "cannon" off of the frame with a round in the chamber? Only someone who lacks the common sense to ensure the chamber is clear before field stripping the pistol. Both were, I believe, attempts to make the gun safer in the hands of someone who knew little about firearms and were likely to fire their pistol only for qualification or on the job.... never for practice or proficiency between times.

The above is all conjecture on my part but, unless someone has a better explaination, I think it's correct.

Carl · 07-20-2002, 08:00 PM

Gentlemen,
Thanks for the info on the Luger. But I made a huge mistake. I gave you the wrong serial no. The correct number is 75540. This makes it a whole new ballgame. Sorry it was late and I typed a 9 instead of a 7! Comments please.
Carl

Doubs · 07-20-2002, 11:42 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Carl:
Gentlemen,
Thanks for the info on the Luger. But I made a huge mistake. I gave you the wrong serial no. The correct number is 75540. This makes it a whole new ballgame. Sorry it was late and I typed a 9 instead of a 7! Comments please.
Carl<hr></blockquote>

Carl, it's not only a new ballgame but it appears you've hit a home run! According to Jan Still, serial number 75,441 was the approximate beginning of the Basil police pistols. Yours would be about the 100th one made. Everything else you report about the pistol is correct.... congratulations on a nice find.

MauserLugers · 08-21-2002, 11:30 AM

Hi,
Thought I'd mention a Luger I have that is very similar to yours. Mine is number 75690 -- It also is a Basel gun. Mine is also marked like yours with a 1920 chamber date, has a sear safety, had the magazine safety clipped, has a circle S on the left receiver, DWM toggle and two matching police magazines. Interesting Luger as it apparently ended up back in Germany shortly after it was issued. Good collecting!

07-19-2002, 11:53 PM	#1
Carl User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central PA Posts: 113 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Basel Police Luger ? I bought this Luger at a local auction about three years ago. It belonged to a woman whose husband had passed away. I asked her where it came from, she said her brother had given it to her husband when he came home from WW2. Her husband was in the Pacific and her brother was in Europe. Description: DWM, 1920 on breach (origional date removed), 4" barrel, no proofs on right frame (removed), lazy n proof on left frame, N proof on barrel, serial no. 95540 on barrel and front frame and left side frame above lazy N, sear safety. The clip is extruded type marked 122 E/37 with alumimun base serialed 2116 k. He brought it home in a brown sholder holster.

07-20-2002, 09:33 AM	#5
Edmond , DCB shooting User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: FRANCE Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	""what types of guns were used by what kind of police (city/state/SD)in the era referenced?"" too bad I did not back up all the topic we had about this subject on Gunsworld but I did some and I'll find them to avoid to type all that again and post it.. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> __________________ Shoot'in by DCB

07-20-2002, 11:59 AM	#7
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill: <strong>I have heard that the sear safety was often removed from the guns for military use, and that the sear safety was a definite indicator for police use. I was not aware that a sear safety could be added to a military or commercial gun for police use. And using the timeline of it was a police pistol, it was dated 1920, it was not used by the military therefore it was used by the police, is there any way of knowing what types of guns were used by what kind of police (city/state/SD)in the era referenced? Thanks for your reply in advance. (Bottom line: I've got a 1918 police erfurt, would love know more about it) RK</strong><hr></blockquote> RK, the sear safety, in conjunction with the magazine safety, is a definite indicator of police use. If you'll notice, where the sear safety exists, the lower left frame immediately above the grip and in line with the rear of the mag release will be slotted. The slot was part of the magazine safety mod and that is the one that is most often missing on police guns as they were removed or deactivated. I'm looking at my 1916 Erfurt police pistol as I type this and the slot on mine has been very professionally filled in with only a mark visable where it used to be. The mag safety had a piece of metal passing between the frame and mag release - under the grip - that prevented the trigger from being depressed all the way if the mag was out. Inserting a mag levered the metal tab out of the trigger's path, allowing full travel. Many hundreds - if not thousands - of Imperial military Lugers were so modified after the war. The only means of identifying which police force used them is if they were stamped with police unit markings. I agree that Jan's serial number range is only a guide and I should have made that clear in my first post. I was not suggesting that there's anything improper about the Luger in question; only that it extends the known serial number range of the commercial pistols used by police by quite a bit. Unless your Erfurt police pistol has been stamped with unit markings, there's no way to ID who used it. Like mine, it's one that served as a police gun. They were issued to police with two mags marked on the base 1 & 2 and the serial number. My Erfurt has a mismatched mag with the number 2 on it. My East German police rework - a 1917 Erfurt - has two matching mags numbered 1 & 2.

07-20-2002, 12:05 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I just asked this same type of question on Pete's scan in thread, but feel it is more relevant here: What is the advantage to the sear safety and what is the reason the police had them and not others? How does it comapare to the safety for the grip safeties (apples and oranges I know)? Any indication that these were required across the board? Weren't police units separate in the different states?? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-20-2002, 12:22 PM	#9
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Edward Tinker: <strong> what is the advantage to the safety and what is the reason the police had them and not others? </strong><hr></blockquote> Ed, my own opinion is that magazine safeties are a solution to a non-existent problem. If I remove the mag the gun becomes a paperweight, unable to fire the round in the chamber - assuming there is one. IMO, the reason for removing the mag safety from police guns is that the powers that be came to the same conclusion. Possibly the Germans had the same problem with their police as we have with ours now. Not all police are "gun people" or competent with firearms. So, the authorities attempt to make the gun as "idiot-proof" as possible. The sear safety was to prevent the "cannon" being fired while the sideplate was not in place or while the "cannon" was detatched from the frame. Comsidering that the extractor serves as a loaded chamber indicator that can be both seen and felt, what idiot takes the "cannon" off of the frame with a round in the chamber? Only someone who lacks the common sense to ensure the chamber is clear before field stripping the pistol. Both were, I believe, attempts to make the gun safer in the hands of someone who knew little about firearms and were likely to fire their pistol only for qualification or on the job.... never for practice or proficiency between times. The above is all conjecture on my part but, unless someone has a better explaination, I think it's correct.

07-20-2002, 12:23 AM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Carl, your Luger carries a commercial five digit serial number that places production in the Weimar period. It falls outside the Basil serial number range. The sear safety indicates that it was produced as a police gun and the date is likely the original, meaning that 1920 is the only date the receiver has ever had stamped on it. The lack of military proofs on the right receiver wall is typical of commercial pistols. The only thing out of wack is the serial number itself. The 95,500 range is about 3,500 higher than any in the commercial range reported by Jan Still in "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers". He caps his Police pistols at about 92,000 and yours obviously is somewhat higher. The 1920 date would seem to indicate that the serial number should be lower. Perhaps Jan will read your message and give us his opinion. It sounds like a nice pistol and one you'll want to keep.

07-20-2002, 07:08 AM	#3
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Carl, The pistols sounds like a nice one! In my opinion, the commercial pistol range that Jan has listed is a guide to the range and there may be some over/under those listed. Also, I feel that during the Weimar period, many commercial stamped pistols were diverted to the Police, and the commercial stamps would not have been an indication that they were destined for Government use when the Versaille Treaty checks were made at DWM. The Sear Safety is a definite indication that the pistol was used by the Police in the Third Reich period. When the Sear safety was added, the pistol may have been reworked at the Police Arsenal. These are very interesting pistols and the price for them are still reasonable. At one time they were not considered very collectible, but this is changing in my opinion. If you don't have a copy, get the book by Jan Still, "Weimar Lugers"; it is very good reading and full of details of this period. Marvin

07-20-2002, 08:14 AM	#4
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Marvin, Good Morning! Reference your knowledgable information on subject, the point that the firearm was used by police in the era mentioned got my attention. As usual, I'll willingly reveal the depth of my Luger expertise (about 2"). Please provide more info on police lugers. I have heard that the sear safety was often removed from the guns for military use, and that the sear safety was a definite indicator for police use. I was not aware that a sear safety could be added to a military or commercial gun for police use. And using the timeline of it was a police pistol, it was dated 1920, it was not used by the military therefore it was used by the police, is there any way of knowing what types of guns were used by what kind of police (city/state/SD)in the era referenced? Thanks for your reply in advance. (Bottom line: I've got a 1918 police erfurt, would love know more about it) RK

07-20-2002, 10:00 AM	#6
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Roadkill, This is sort of my opinion that the commarcial pistols that were being made during the Weimar period were being made with the use of them going to a Military/Police roll for the government. Since yours has the 1920 date, it could be the Military property stamp, but I don't think so; I think it may be the date stamp. If the pistol was still in stock when need by the Government, the commercial would have been purchased from DWM since they could not legally manufacture military pistols. This would have been a very nice clandestined source of pistols. Since yours does not have any Police Stamps, I would guess that it was in stock somewhere in the late 1930s and then purchased/pulled from stock for the Police in the early 1930s and then the ruling to add the Sear Safety. As to the Sear Safety being removed from a Police pistol that went to Military duty is true as the Military did not use/like the safety. In reverse, if a Military pistol was routed back to the Police during this time, it would have Military stamps and have the Sear Safety. This is what is so interesting about the Weimar Lugers, there are very few hard and fast rules. Most anything could have happened during those times. I have always wondered, that since the Police could purchase the pistols required, and not as closely monitored as the Military, if the POlie purchased pistols and them routed them to the Military???? The Weimars are the most difficult to understand. I read and re-read "Weimar Lugers" and get new information each time. If you have a couple of these pistols, get the book as it will help a lot and also open up more questions. Edmond is correct that if he can find the info from Gunsworld, it would be a big help. The Weimars are just plain interesting and priced right for the new collector to start with if interested in the=is time. It covers Lugers from pre-WWI until approx. 1935 when actual large scale production from Mauser began. I wish I had the answers, but with help from other Forum members, maybe we can piece together some of the puzzle. Marvin

07-20-2002, 08:00 PM	#10
Carl User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central PA Posts: 113 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Gentlemen, Thanks for the info on the Luger. But I made a huge mistake. I gave you the wrong serial no. The correct number is 75540. This makes it a whole new ballgame. Sorry it was late and I typed a 9 instead of a 7! Comments please. Carl

07-20-2002, 11:42 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Carl: <strong>Gentlemen, Thanks for the info on the Luger. But I made a huge mistake. I gave you the wrong serial no. The correct number is 75540. This makes it a whole new ballgame. Sorry it was late and I typed a 9 instead of a 7! Comments please. Carl</strong><hr></blockquote> Carl, it's not only a new ballgame but it appears you've hit a home run! According to Jan Still, serial number 75,441 was the approximate beginning of the Basil police pistols. Yours would be about the 100th one made. Everything else you report about the pistol is correct.... congratulations on a nice find.

08-21-2002, 11:30 AM	#12
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, Thought I'd mention a Luger I have that is very similar to yours. Mine is number 75690 -- It also is a Basel gun. Mine is also marked like yours with a 1920 chamber date, has a sear safety, had the magazine safety clipped, has a circle S on the left receiver, DWM toggle and two matching police magazines. Interesting Luger as it apparently ended up back in Germany shortly after it was issued. Good collecting!