1902 Fat Barrel Swiss...?

Pete Ebbink · 08-20-2002, 09:35 PM

Heard that there may have been some 1902 Fat Barrels with the Swiss Cross/Sunburst chamber marking...

Does anyone have one or know of such a DWM Swiss contract fat barrel ? <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Jan C Still · 08-20-2002, 11:24 PM

Pete
Ralph Shattuck used to have a 1902 fat barrel Swiss in his collection (It was one of a kind and he may still have it). Probably you already knew this!

As I recall, Vittorio Bobba in his outstanding book "Parabellum, A technical History of Swiss Lugers" does not list the 1902 fat barrel Swiss. He based his book on factory and Swiss documents. (Note: on page 123 Vittorioi does mention a prominent American Luger seller.)
Jan

Pete Ebbink · 08-21-2002, 12:11 PM

Good Morning, Jan,

1. Yes, I am aware that Ralph has a 1902 Fat Barrel Swiss. I have been invited to see this luger myself upon my next trip on business to the AZ area. I am also aware that Mr. Bobba does not specifically include such a variation in his 1991 book.

Books sometimes do need to catch up with the collecting and sighting of lugers. I am sure that's what all those databases of serial numbers, sightings, and reported condition that many advanced collectors and experts, such as yourself, do after a certain book is printed and serial number lists are publised.

2. The point of my posting was to see if any other advanced collectors might have seen another or even have one in their collections.

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

bradsimpson · 08-21-2002, 03:26 PM

Pete,
I know of no historical evidence that the Swiss purchased any 1902 Lugers. This would be a very important variation, and records should be available.

Just roll a Swiss cross on the chamber, and there you have it.

It is also easy for a gunsmith to put a Swiss receiver on a 1902. Look close at the serial number on the lug underneath to see if it looks like the other numbers on the gun. If the original numbers have been faced off, it will be a little lower, with fresh numbers, and slightly different blue.

Good luck.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Pete Ebbink · 08-21-2002, 05:56 PM

Hello Brad,

Thanks so much for your useful info. I have printed out a copy of your tips and will be sure to look for this when I visit Mr. Shattuck's.

I did not ask if Ralph's gun was a contract luger or not. I will do this. If yes, then this might be a rare variation, in deed.

I was also thinking it might be a 1902 Fat Barrel Commerical, as shown on page 70-71 in H. Jones' book, Luger Variations; that got over to Switzerland and had the Swiss cross/sunburst added, as was done with many lugers used by shooting clubs in Switzerland.

Sort of like that Swiss Navy (Jim Elson's piece) we were all debating a few weeks back...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

bradsimpson · 08-21-2002, 07:58 PM

Pete,
If the Swiss Cross was added after the gun was manufactured it is virtually impossible to tell whether it was done 100 years ago in Switzerland or yesterday in the USA.

But if the receiver has been switched and re-numbered, its a recent domestic job.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Lugerdoc · 08-22-2002, 10:22 AM

If a true M1902, the serial number should be in the 22xxx to 23500 5-digit, no suffix range the correct M1900 features. Also see "lugers at Random" for info on the 10,000 B range prototypes. The Swiss were well known for having private firms add all sorts of barrels &/or target sites to their commerical pistols. Tom H.

Pete Ebbink · 08-22-2002, 07:57 PM

Hello Again Brad and Tom,

Thanks so much to the two of you for such good info. I will print out copies of your tips, copy relevant book pages; so I will be well armed with info. when I get a chance to see this Swiss.

Appreciatively !

Pete...

Johnny Peppers · 08-22-2002, 10:53 PM

There is a picture of the 1902 Fat Barrel "Swiss" in Fred Datig's Monograph IV: The Swiss Variations. The receiver appears to have Swiss military acceptance marks, which I had heard that it had.

Pete Ebbink · 08-23-2002, 08:29 PM

Hello All,

Thanks so much for all this good info. regarding a 1902 Fat Barrel Swiss.

1. I believe the R. Shattuck luger is serial # 22049.

2. As Johnny Peppers rightly pointed out, this gun is well photographed in Fred A. Datig's Monograph IV: The Swiss Variations 1897-1947 (1992 edition), on page 74. I think the black & white photos show both a swiss cross on the left side of the barrel as well as another swiss cross and the Vogelsang proof both on the left side of the receiver, in front of the trigger side plate.

The text on page 73 of the Datig book reads as : "An extremely scarce specimen is the pistol illustrated on page 74. Made by DWM circa 1903, it is a typicaly early commerical pistol for the Swiss market but unusual in that is has the thick 9mm barrel, a Model 1902. Despite its commericial-range serial nubmer, 22049, it could have been sent to Switzerland as a test sample of the then newly introduced caliber 9mm. "

3. Jan C. Still's previous post directing me to Bobba's book on page 122-123 does not seem relevant to my question regarding this 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel. The Bobba text on page 122-123 is discussing some "Abercrombie & Fitch - Made in Switzerland" and the issue of one-line versus two-line barrel inscriptions. Bobba asserts the two-line variations are fake and mentions Ralph Shattuck has/had one. There is no discussion about a Swiss Fat Barrel.

4. Finally in Jan C. Still's, Imperial Lugers and Their Accessories (1991), on page 11; this same Swiss Fat Barrel, serial # 22049 is listed, with only one (1) piece reported and the estimated production number column left "blank".

I also enclose Mr. Still's recent quote regarding the 1914 "q" Erfurt of a day or two ago :

"As to the accuracy of my serial number data base published in Imperial Lugers(1991). I consider this an accurate-correct data base. Although it has not been updated, it has not been tainted with the resent surge of boosted and faked Lugers."

Mr. Still; have you changed your mind about this 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel ?

Respectfully,

Pete

Heinz · 08-23-2002, 10:13 PM

I thought the point about the Abercrombie and Fitch "made in Switzerland" Lugers was that A&F was "boosting". As I understand these were DWM Lugers, made in Germany with barrels made in Switzerland. A example that prominent merchant can be misleading when money is involved. I do not think Jan was maligning any current dealers, just noting past facts.

regards, Heinz

Jan C Still · 08-23-2002, 11:29 PM

Pete
Thanks for your comments. I hope this post clears up your confusion.
You stated "Mr. Still; have you changed your mind about this 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel ?"

I dont have a position on the 1902 Swiss so I dont have a position to change. I did point out that it is left out of the most authoritative book covering Swiss Lugers. Perhaps you or someone else didnt want that fact pointed out. You have left me a little confused as to the point of your post.

Apparently you skipped the paragraph on page 1 of the Book IMPERIAL LUGERS. I am repeating it below for you to read.

"SERIAL NUMBER DATA TABLES

Serial numbers used in this text were obtained from a number of sources ranging from pistols examined by the author to information compiled by other collectors or reported in publications. Such data is subject to error each time it is transcribed. Also, details in the description of pistols ascribed to each serial number varied greatly in completeness. In some cases the serial numbers ascribed to specific variations, or to indicate change from variation to variation, were based on a best estimate made from incomplete data. However, with this caution in mind, the serial number data tables provide a good general guide to the serial range, production, and scarcity of the pistols described. Any corrections or additional information should be addressed to the author for future publication."
Jan

wterrell · 08-23-2002, 11:42 PM

Pete,

It is nice to have experts with whom we can ask advice and opinions, but we cannot expect them to conduct our research for us.
If we have a question concerning an item that is out of the ordinary or not conventionally accepted, we cannot merely read the published experts and then say that we have conducted research. Do as Mr. Still and others have done: go the the prime sources and bring evidence to light, organize original information, and publish. Create your hypothesis, have the leading experts offer their opinions, and then research to support your hypothesis. This is how any serious question is put forth.

Pete Ebbink · 08-26-2002, 01:10 PM

Hell Jan,

1. Yes, I am/was aware that Bobba does not acknowledge a 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel in his fine book. Please see my 2nd. post :

"I am also aware that Mr. Bobba does not specifically include such a variation in his 1991 book."

2. I guess I did miss your disclaimer on page 1 of IL's. My apology for missing this. Your 1914 post seemed to me to sound like a statement of accuracy...so I was a bit confused (as I usually am...).

3. I still "miss" the point of your reference to page 123 in Bobba's book. How is it relevant to my question regarding if any "other" Swiss Fat Barrels exist or have been seen/reported ?

How was/is this germane to my original question regarding a Swiss Fat Barrel...?

4. Finally, I understand that you have no position on the gun in Ralph Shattuck's collection. Thank you for making this statement.

Regards,

Pete
<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-20-2002, 09:35 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	1902 Fat Barrel Swiss...? Heard that there may have been some 1902 Fat Barrels with the Swiss Cross/Sunburst chamber marking... Does anyone have one or know of such a DWM Swiss contract fat barrel ? <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-22-2002, 10:22 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	If a true M1902, the serial number should be in the 22xxx to 23500 5-digit, no suffix range the correct M1900 features. Also see "lugers at Random" for info on the 10,000 B range prototypes. The Swiss were well known for having private firms add all sorts of barrels &/or target sites to their commerical pistols. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-23-2002, 11:42 PM	#13
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, It is nice to have experts with whom we can ask advice and opinions, but we cannot expect them to conduct our research for us. If we have a question concerning an item that is out of the ordinary or not conventionally accepted, we cannot merely read the published experts and then say that we have conducted research. Do as Mr. Still and others have done: go the the prime sources and bring evidence to light, organize original information, and publish. Create your hypothesis, have the leading experts offer their opinions, and then research to support your hypothesis. This is how any serious question is put forth. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

08-20-2002, 11:24 PM	#2
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Pete Ralph Shattuck used to have a 1902 fat barrel Swiss in his collection (It was one of a kind and he may still have it). Probably you already knew this! As I recall, Vittorio Bobba in his outstanding book "Parabellum, A technical History of Swiss Lugers" does not list the 1902 fat barrel Swiss. He based his book on factory and Swiss documents. (Note: on page 123 Vittorioi does mention a prominent American Luger seller.) Jan

08-21-2002, 12:11 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Good Morning, Jan, 1. Yes, I am aware that Ralph has a 1902 Fat Barrel Swiss. I have been invited to see this luger myself upon my next trip on business to the AZ area. I am also aware that Mr. Bobba does not specifically include such a variation in his 1991 book. Books sometimes do need to catch up with the collecting and sighting of lugers. I am sure that's what all those databases of serial numbers, sightings, and reported condition that many advanced collectors and experts, such as yourself, do after a certain book is printed and serial number lists are publised. 2. The point of my posting was to see if any other advanced collectors might have seen another or even have one in their collections. Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-21-2002, 03:26 PM	#4
bradsimpson User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Galesburg, IL Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 9 Posts	Pete, I know of no historical evidence that the Swiss purchased any 1902 Lugers. This would be a very important variation, and records should be available. Just roll a Swiss cross on the chamber, and there you have it. It is also easy for a gunsmith to put a Swiss receiver on a 1902. Look close at the serial number on the lug underneath to see if it looks like the other numbers on the gun. If the original numbers have been faced off, it will be a little lower, with fresh numbers, and slightly different blue. Good luck. [img]smile.gif[/img]

08-21-2002, 05:56 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Brad, Thanks so much for your useful info. I have printed out a copy of your tips and will be sure to look for this when I visit Mr. Shattuck's. I did not ask if Ralph's gun was a contract luger or not. I will do this. If yes, then this might be a rare variation, in deed. I was also thinking it might be a 1902 Fat Barrel Commerical, as shown on page 70-71 in H. Jones' book, Luger Variations; that got over to Switzerland and had the Swiss cross/sunburst added, as was done with many lugers used by shooting clubs in Switzerland. Sort of like that Swiss Navy (Jim Elson's piece) we were all debating a few weeks back... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-21-2002, 07:58 PM	#6
bradsimpson User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Galesburg, IL Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 9 Posts	Pete, If the Swiss Cross was added after the gun was manufactured it is virtually impossible to tell whether it was done 100 years ago in Switzerland or yesterday in the USA. But if the receiver has been switched and re-numbered, its a recent domestic job. [img]smile.gif[/img]

08-22-2002, 07:57 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Again Brad and Tom, Thanks so much to the two of you for such good info. I will print out copies of your tips, copy relevant book pages; so I will be well armed with info. when I get a chance to see this Swiss. Appreciatively ! Pete...

08-22-2002, 10:53 PM	#9
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	There is a picture of the 1902 Fat Barrel "Swiss" in Fred Datig's Monograph IV: The Swiss Variations. The receiver appears to have Swiss military acceptance marks, which I had heard that it had.

08-23-2002, 08:29 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello All, Thanks so much for all this good info. regarding a 1902 Fat Barrel Swiss. 1. I believe the R. Shattuck luger is serial # 22049. 2. As Johnny Peppers rightly pointed out, this gun is well photographed in Fred A. Datig's Monograph IV: The Swiss Variations 1897-1947 (1992 edition), on page 74. I think the black & white photos show both a swiss cross on the left side of the barrel as well as another swiss cross and the Vogelsang proof both on the left side of the receiver, in front of the trigger side plate. The text on page 73 of the Datig book reads as : "An extremely scarce specimen is the pistol illustrated on page 74. Made by DWM circa 1903, it is a typicaly early commerical pistol for the Swiss market but unusual in that is has the thick 9mm barrel, a Model 1902. Despite its commericial-range serial nubmer, 22049, it could have been sent to Switzerland as a test sample of the then newly introduced caliber 9mm. " 3. Jan C. Still's previous post directing me to Bobba's book on page 122-123 does not seem relevant to my question regarding this 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel. The Bobba text on page 122-123 is discussing some "Abercrombie & Fitch - Made in Switzerland" and the issue of one-line versus two-line barrel inscriptions. Bobba asserts the two-line variations are fake and mentions Ralph Shattuck has/had one. There is no discussion about a Swiss Fat Barrel. 4. Finally in Jan C. Still's, Imperial Lugers and Their Accessories (1991), on page 11; this same Swiss Fat Barrel, serial # 22049 is listed, with only one (1) piece reported and the estimated production number column left "blank". I also enclose Mr. Still's recent quote regarding the 1914 "q" Erfurt of a day or two ago : "As to the accuracy of my serial number data base published in Imperial Lugers(1991). I consider this an accurate-correct data base. Although it has not been updated, it has not been tainted with the resent surge of boosted and faked Lugers." Mr. Still; have you changed your mind about this 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel ? Respectfully, Pete

08-23-2002, 10:13 PM	#11
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	I thought the point about the Abercrombie and Fitch "made in Switzerland" Lugers was that A&F was "boosting". As I understand these were DWM Lugers, made in Germany with barrels made in Switzerland. A example that prominent merchant can be misleading when money is involved. I do not think Jan was maligning any current dealers, just noting past facts. regards, Heinz

08-23-2002, 11:29 PM	#12
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Pete Thanks for your comments. I hope this post clears up your confusion. You stated "Mr. Still; have you changed your mind about this 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel ?" I dont have a position on the 1902 Swiss so I dont have a position to change. I did point out that it is left out of the most authoritative book covering Swiss Lugers. Perhaps you or someone else didnt want that fact pointed out. You have left me a little confused as to the point of your post. Apparently you skipped the paragraph on page 1 of the Book IMPERIAL LUGERS. I am repeating it below for you to read. "SERIAL NUMBER DATA TABLES Serial numbers used in this text were obtained from a number of sources ranging from pistols examined by the author to information compiled by other collectors or reported in publications. Such data is subject to error each time it is transcribed. Also, details in the description of pistols ascribed to each serial number varied greatly in completeness. In some cases the serial numbers ascribed to specific variations, or to indicate change from variation to variation, were based on a best estimate made from incomplete data. However, with this caution in mind, the serial number data tables provide a good general guide to the serial range, production, and scarcity of the pistols described. Any corrections or additional information should be addressed to the author for future publication." Jan

08-26-2002, 01:10 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hell Jan, 1. Yes, I am/was aware that Bobba does not acknowledge a 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel in his fine book. Please see my 2nd. post : "I am also aware that Mr. Bobba does not specifically include such a variation in his 1991 book." 2. I guess I did miss your disclaimer on page 1 of IL's. My apology for missing this. Your 1914 post seemed to me to sound like a statement of accuracy...so I was a bit confused (as I usually am...). 3. I still "miss" the point of your reference to page 123 in Bobba's book. How is it relevant to my question regarding if any "other" Swiss Fat Barrels exist or have been seen/reported ? How was/is this germane to my original question regarding a Swiss Fat Barrel...? 4. Finally, I understand that you have no position on the gun in Ralph Shattuck's collection. Thank you for making this statement. Regards, Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />