Our Founding Fathers Debated This Issue!

cirelaw · 01-15-2013, 10:18 AM

The same debate took place over 2 hundred years ago!!

John Sabato · 01-15-2013, 11:44 AM

Eric (...and everyone else for that matter),

Quotes such as this are excellent "ammunition" for battling gun control initiatives, but only if they have the force of "truth"... so please quote not only his words, but his context.

Was it a speech, a letter, a published reference that would stand up in court? Without the reference it would be declared a fraud by the opposition... so please, if you have the reference for the quote, please post it.

We simply can't resort to posting things online that have no provenance... that would lower us to the same level as our opposition... and if we DO, the opposition forces in this fight will find out that it has no basis and point it out, negating our efforts.

Just sayin'...

cirelaw · 01-15-2013, 12:18 PM

I used google images and advanced search for guncontrol. There are plenty images of everything!!

DavidJayUden · 01-15-2013, 02:53 PM

John:
I agree, however if facts were all that important then teachers would be armed and every state and local gov't. would welcome CCW. And we would not be in the midst of this hysteria.
However "truth" and "facts" are only applicable at certain times and by certain persons.
dju

John Sabato · 01-15-2013, 02:54 PM

Eric, I may not have been easily understood... what I meant was the source of the quote, not the image. WHEN and WHERE did George Washington say that sentence? That is what is important.

cirelaw · 01-15-2013, 03:05 PM

You see it as I found it. Ill do some historical research tonight. The problem is everything now is Hearsay upon Hearsay. I have a Bachelors in History and love a challenge!

John Sabato · 01-15-2013, 03:21 PM

Evidently I am still not making myself clear to you Eric, you need to research the quote, and you would find it is actually a misquote.

I think the image is GREAT, but unfortunately, the quote is false

...if we cannot substantiate when and where something was said, then we can't prove that the quote is true... and if we can't prove that it is a true quote, then the statement is worthless in the fight for gun rights with our enemies...

Here is the research reference for the actual quote...By: George Washington.

"A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well digested plan is requisite: And their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories, as tend to render them independent on others, for essential, particularly for military supplies."

Year: 1790
Context: First Annual Message to Congress

Notations:

Often Inaccurately quoted as: “A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.”

...The lesson I am trying to convey is that there are PLENTY of quotes from our founders that support our right to bear arms... but we must make sure that we only use those that we can prove are true, or we harm only ourselves when the truth comes out.

Here is an example of what I am talking about...a quote that we can PROVE actually took place:

By: Thomas Jefferson
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms… disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.

Year: 1764, 1774-1776
Context: Quoted by Thomas Jefferson in Commonplace Book

cirelaw · 01-15-2013, 03:24 PM

Please don't shoot the messanger!

Shadowsix · 01-15-2013, 03:26 PM

A John Basil Barnhill quote:

Quote:

When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

This is from a series of debates on socialism published in 1914 but has been attributed to Thomas Jefferson but there is no evidence of this.

An excellent quote none the less and with what people think Obama is trying to do, quite fitting.

alvin · 01-15-2013, 04:16 PM

One thing I don't understand -- dealer's shelves are almost empty now, why cannot they order more from factory? Law has not changed yet.

In a local gun store, I saw rifles were almost all gone. Not only semi-auto rifles, even bolt actions are rare now. Pistols.... now they're selling expensive C&R PPK and a Kriegsmarine Mauser Pocket, very unusual for a modern gun dealer.... even revolver's glass display counter was not crowded anymore. Ammo? I see a few boxes of .380ACP left.

mrerick · 01-15-2013, 04:23 PM

On Topic: There are some excellent quotes available from contemporary sources like the Federalist Papers. Many are mentioned in this article:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/687643/posts

Off topic, answering Alvin's post:

The massive panic buying that started in mid December has literally emptied the distribution channels.

My LGS is now telling customers that you can buy what's in the store, but that they are unable to place orders with their distributors because the distributors are out of stock.

The LGS in my area is pricing used firearms well beyond their actual long term value. A mismatched p.38 in the case Saturday was priced at $850. One of the most established stores in my area has plenty of stock on the floor (they must have leveraged their relationship with distributors). The clerks in these shops are all exhausted...

With about 5,000,000 instant background checks done during November and December (triggered at first by the election results) it doesn't surprise me.

Supply (which is temporarily exhausted) and demand is driving this. I'm confident that the manufacturers are working in high gear right now...

Marc

Steve Lempitski · 01-15-2013, 06:50 PM

Problem is when George Washington and the rest of the the Founding Fathers made these quotes it applied to white men only...In 1791 when 10 of the 12 Amendments were ratified, women were 4th class citizens and would not be allowed to vote for 130 years, and south of the Mason Dixon line slavery was the law of the land...

01-15-2013, 10:18 AM	#1
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Our Founding Fathers Debated This Issue! The same debate took place over 2 hundred years ago!! Attached Images

01-15-2013, 11:44 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Eric (...and everyone else for that matter), Quotes such as this are excellent "ammunition" for battling gun control initiatives, but only if they have the force of "truth"... so please quote not only his words, but his context. Was it a speech, a letter, a published reference that would stand up in court? Without the reference it would be declared a fraud by the opposition... so please, if you have the reference for the quote, please post it. We simply can't resort to posting things online that have no provenance... that would lower us to the same level as our opposition... and if we DO, the opposition forces in this fight will find out that it has no basis and point it out, negating our efforts. Just sayin'... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-15-2013, 02:54 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Eric, I may not have been easily understood... what I meant was the source of the quote, not the image. WHEN and WHERE did George Washington say that sentence? That is what is important. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-15-2013, 03:21 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Evidently I am still not making myself clear to you Eric, you need to research the quote, and you would find it is actually a misquote. I think the image is GREAT, but unfortunately, the quote is false ...if we cannot substantiate when and where something was said, then we can't prove that the quote is true... and if we can't prove that it is a true quote, then the statement is worthless in the fight for gun rights with our enemies... Here is the research reference for the actual quote...By: George Washington. "A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well digested plan is requisite: And their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories, as tend to render them independent on others, for essential, particularly for military supplies." Year: 1790 Context: First Annual Message to Congress Notations: Often Inaccurately quoted as: “A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” ...The lesson I am trying to convey is that there are PLENTY of quotes from our founders that support our right to bear arms... but we must make sure that we only use those that we can prove are true, or we harm only ourselves when the truth comes out. Here is an example of what I am talking about...a quote that we can PROVE actually took place: By: Thomas Jefferson Laws that forbid the carrying of arms… disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Year: 1764, 1774-1776 Context: Quoted by Thomas Jefferson in Commonplace Book __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-15-2013, 04:23 PM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	On Topic: There are some excellent quotes available from contemporary sources like the Federalist Papers. Many are mentioned in this article: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/687643/posts Off topic, answering Alvin's post: The massive panic buying that started in mid December has literally emptied the distribution channels. My LGS is now telling customers that you can buy what's in the store, but that they are unable to place orders with their distributors because the distributors are out of stock. The LGS in my area is pricing used firearms well beyond their actual long term value. A mismatched p.38 in the case Saturday was priced at $850. One of the most established stores in my area has plenty of stock on the floor (they must have leveraged their relationship with distributors). The clerks in these shops are all exhausted... With about 5,000,000 instant background checks done during November and December (triggered at first by the election results) it doesn't surprise me. Supply (which is temporarily exhausted) and demand is driving this. I'm confident that the manufacturers are working in high gear right now... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-15-2013, 12:18 PM	#3
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	I used google images and advanced search for guncontrol. There are plenty images of everything!!

01-15-2013, 02:53 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	John: I agree, however if facts were all that important then teachers would be armed and every state and local gov't. would welcome CCW. And we would not be in the midst of this hysteria. However "truth" and "facts" are only applicable at certain times and by certain persons. dju

01-15-2013, 03:05 PM	#6
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	You see it as I found it. Ill do some historical research tonight. The problem is everything now is Hearsay upon Hearsay. I have a Bachelors in History and love a challenge!

01-15-2013, 03:24 PM	#8
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Please don't shoot the messanger!

01-15-2013, 04:16 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	One thing I don't understand -- dealer's shelves are almost empty now, why cannot they order more from factory? Law has not changed yet. In a local gun store, I saw rifles were almost all gone. Not only semi-auto rifles, even bolt actions are rare now. Pistols.... now they're selling expensive C&R PPK and a Kriegsmarine Mauser Pocket, very unusual for a modern gun dealer.... even revolver's glass display counter was not crowded anymore. Ammo? I see a few boxes of .380ACP left.

01-15-2013, 06:50 PM	#12
Steve Lempitski User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Old Cape Cod Posts: 238 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Problem is when George Washington and the rest of the the Founding Fathers made these quotes it applied to white men only...In 1791 when 10 of the 12 Amendments were ratified, women were 4th class citizens and would not be allowed to vote for 130 years, and south of the Mason Dixon line slavery was the law of the land... __________________ SJL