tool

Orvis25 · 10-16-2002, 05:48 PM

I have a unmarked take-down tool . Is this possible and be pre-45?

policeluger · 10-16-2002, 06:17 PM

Yes....

Orvis25 · 10-17-2002, 08:29 AM

So if it is pre-45. I guess I am assuming it is a for a commercial luger (Wiemer era)? are the unmarked ones rare?
thx

policeluger · 10-17-2002, 10:31 AM

Unmarked tools are not rare, it is the proofed tools that, if original, bring the higher bucks. Proofed tools can "date" the tool to a period or a single gun as in the case of Weimar Police. Unmarked tools bring about $45.00 or so, proofed tools can run in the several hundreds. It one reason why I do not collect Imperial Navy. I think good proofed Simpson tools can bring about $125/$150...hope this was of help.

Edward Tinker · 10-17-2002, 11:05 AM

I don't know tons about tools, but a friend of mine sent me an incredibly good explanation on tools, so if I may paraphrase him:

[quote]Regarding your question; yes the totally reproduced tools aren't up to standards. I have posted a picture showing an original tool, on top, and two reproduced tools. Note the thickness differences and the detail on the edges. An original tool should measure 2.5 mm in thickness. This is according to military specifications. The entire tool had to made to spec, the point of the bend on top, the width of the grooves on the back the length of the tool, etc. Over or under would be cause to reject them. The other two in the attached picture are oversize. The bottom one is 3mm thick. Also note the difference in the length of the material at the bend of the tool on the bottom.

One would think that something as simple as a loading tool shouldn't provide any mysteries but that isn't the case. They have been, and continue to be, faked, boosted, enhanced, what ever. Sarco has a decent total repro tool that is selling for $5.65 unmarked and $12.50 stamped with an E/63 acceptance stamp. It isn't a bad effort, wouldn't fool the knowledgeable, but if you want a tool to stick in your tool pouch, it serves the purpose. However, while some of these tools are totally bogus, others are original blank tools that have had bogus acceptance stamps applied . I have heard reports from credible sources and have seen pictures of crates of unissued WWII vintage blank tools that were purchased in Europe after the fall of the East Block and brought into the US... <hr></blockquote>

policeluger · 10-17-2002, 02:54 PM

Ed, very informative post. I need to book mark it. Great job.

Edward Tinker · 10-17-2002, 04:17 PM

That was a Garfield assist he sent me months ago, but he did say I could use it and for the FAQ (he e-mailed me today) and he's doing good.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

wterrell · 10-17-2002, 07:05 PM

Edward,

Tell Garfield to get his butt back on this forum.

Mark A · 10-17-2002, 09:10 PM

Second that!

Luke · 10-18-2002, 08:50 AM

Hi Ed,

I have to agree. Since you are in contact with Garfield, perhaps you could convince him to return.

We miss his direct, straightforward, and informed comments.

Luke

John Sabato · 10-18-2002, 10:52 AM

Perhaps he is lurking... and listening.

A reminder that his exile is self-imposed... and can be lifted by just the keystrokes necessary to login and an make his presence known...

Jan C Still · 10-18-2002, 05:57 PM

Edward Tinker · 10-18-2002, 06:17 PM

Jan it is worth it, if the experts allow others to make mistakes and aren't chastised too strongly for making mistakes. Recently it seems like some of the "old time" experts are gung ho on chastising others and then say that they are angry for all the "bull" they have to put up with on the forum.

I'm sorry, but I recognize that y'all know a heck of a lot more than me on Lugers, but I am a fairly intelligent guy and can have opinions and even be right every now and then. I would welcome Garfield back, but he was short (much more so than too the point), and sarcastic to several newcomers and where I am from, that is rudeness. My Grandfather was that way, but he also knew that if he was going to dish it out, he had to take it at times. He helped bring up some rather opinionated kids and grandkids and I have always thought I, as an American have the right to agree and disagree, and on this forum, I listen, but I also believe I can say my mind. Within limits

So we have to consider -
**Why is rudeness acceptable from an expert?
**Why would I want to learn and stay if I am treated badly?

On the other hand, I personally have bought all of Jan StillÃ¢??s books and think they are the best on the market. That isnÃ¢??t false praise for Jan and his books, I believe that Jan took all the available information available, and then bounced the information off of other experts and took some darn fine pictures. They are good books and having experts lurking or coming to the forum increases my knowledge and those I enjoy company with.

wterrell · 10-18-2002, 07:13 PM

Jan

The 'future' experts are on this forum. Their point of view has to be tempered with the accumulated knowledge that has been carefully proven by you and your peers.
If you, Bill Garrison, Klaus Schad, and others do not stick with us, you tell me what the results will be.
Civility may be one step forward and the loss of expertise will be two steps back. Net loss.

Dwight Gruber · 10-19-2002, 05:35 PM

Jan,

Your continued patience is truly appreciated.

--Dwight

Steve Richards · 10-22-2002, 01:25 AM

Jan,

As a fan of the new stainless steel guns (me, not you), I was wondering if you have thought of writting a book about them. By doing so now, you could possibly be able to talk to the people who actually have made them and be given information that will be of use to people in the future and avoid some of the mysteries and second guesses. Just a thought.

Steve Richards

10-16-2002, 05:48 PM	#1
Orvis25 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	tool I have a unmarked take-down tool . Is this possible and be pre-45?

10-17-2002, 11:05 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	I don't know tons about tools, but a friend of mine sent me an incredibly good explanation on tools, so if I may paraphrase him: [quote]Regarding your question; yes the totally reproduced tools aren't up to standards. I have posted a picture showing an original tool, on top, and two reproduced tools. Note the thickness differences and the detail on the edges. An original tool should measure 2.5 mm in thickness. This is according to military specifications. The entire tool had to made to spec, the point of the bend on top, the width of the grooves on the back the length of the tool, etc. Over or under would be cause to reject them. The other two in the attached picture are oversize. The bottom one is 3mm thick. Also note the difference in the length of the material at the bend of the tool on the bottom. One would think that something as simple as a loading tool shouldn't provide any mysteries but that isn't the case. They have been, and continue to be, faked, boosted, enhanced, what ever. Sarco has a decent total repro tool that is selling for $5.65 unmarked and $12.50 stamped with an E/63 acceptance stamp. It isn't a bad effort, wouldn't fool the knowledgeable, but if you want a tool to stick in your tool pouch, it serves the purpose. However, while some of these tools are totally bogus, others are original blank tools that have had bogus acceptance stamps applied . I have heard reports from credible sources and have seen pictures of crates of unissued WWII vintage blank tools that were purchased in Europe after the fall of the East Block and brought into the US... <hr></blockquote> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-17-2002, 04:17 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	That was a Garfield assist he sent me months ago, but he did say I could use it and for the FAQ (he e-mailed me today) and he's doing good. [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-17-2002, 07:05 PM	#8
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Edward, Tell Garfield to get his butt back on this forum. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-17-2002, 09:10 PM	#9
Mark A User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Wheat Ridge, CO Posts: 105 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Second that! __________________ Mark

10-16-2002, 06:17 PM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Yes....

10-17-2002, 08:29 AM	#3
Orvis25 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So if it is pre-45. I guess I am assuming it is a for a commercial luger (Wiemer era)? are the unmarked ones rare? thx

10-17-2002, 10:31 AM	#4
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Unmarked tools are not rare, it is the proofed tools that, if original, bring the higher bucks. Proofed tools can "date" the tool to a period or a single gun as in the case of Weimar Police. Unmarked tools bring about $45.00 or so, proofed tools can run in the several hundreds. It one reason why I do not collect Imperial Navy. I think good proofed Simpson tools can bring about $125/$150...hope this was of help.

10-17-2002, 02:54 PM	#6
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Ed, very informative post. I need to book mark it. Great job.

10-18-2002, 08:50 AM	#10
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Hi Ed, I have to agree. Since you are in contact with Garfield, perhaps you could convince him to return. We miss his direct, straightforward, and informed comments. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

10-18-2002, 10:52 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Perhaps he is lurking... and listening. A reminder that his exile is self-imposed... and can be lifted by just the keystrokes necessary to login and an make his presence known... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-18-2002, 05:57 PM	#12
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts

10-18-2002, 06:17 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Jan it is worth it, if the experts allow others to make mistakes and aren't chastised too strongly for making mistakes. Recently it seems like some of the "old time" experts are gung ho on chastising others and then say that they are angry for all the "bull" they have to put up with on the forum. I'm sorry, but I recognize that y'all know a heck of a lot more than me on Lugers, but I am a fairly intelligent guy and can have opinions and even be right every now and then. I would welcome Garfield back, but he was short (much more so than too the point), and sarcastic to several newcomers and where I am from, that is rudeness. My Grandfather was that way, but he also knew that if he was going to dish it out, he had to take it at times. He helped bring up some rather opinionated kids and grandkids and I have always thought I, as an American have the right to agree and disagree, and on this forum, I listen, but I also believe I can say my mind. Within limits So we have to consider - Why is rudeness acceptable from an expert? Why would I want to learn and stay if I am treated badly? On the other hand, I personally have bought all of Jan StillÃ¢??s books and think they are the best on the market. That isnÃ¢??t false praise for Jan and his books, I believe that Jan took all the available information available, and then bounced the information off of other experts and took some darn fine pictures. They are good books and having experts lurking or coming to the forum increases my knowledge and those I enjoy company with. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-18-2002, 07:13 PM	#14
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jan The 'future' experts are on this forum. Their point of view has to be tempered with the accumulated knowledge that has been carefully proven by you and your peers. If you, Bill Garrison, Klaus Schad, and others do not stick with us, you tell me what the results will be. Civility may be one step forward and the loss of expertise will be two steps back. Net loss. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-19-2002, 05:35 PM	#15
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Jan, Your continued patience is truly appreciated. --Dwight

10-22-2002, 01:25 AM	#16
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jan, As a fan of the new stainless steel guns (me, not you), I was wondering if you have thought of writting a book about them. By doing so now, you could possibly be able to talk to the people who actually have made them and be given information that will be of use to people in the future and avoid some of the mysteries and second guesses. Just a thought. Steve Richards