Nice Rig...

Pete Ebbink · 07-10-2004, 02:01 PM

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=20456726

tracyp · 07-10-2004, 07:25 PM

An almost 90 year old military weapon that looks this good, I would be a little skeptical. The grips look too good. Before I would spend 6k I would want to see more detailed pictures and a three day inspection. Any other opinions?

Also, the guy that bought it doesnÃ¢??t have a very rating.

Ron Smith · 07-10-2004, 08:14 PM

It is alittle suspicious that the grips don't show any wear or marks.They look alittle too pristine. Not even soiled from handling.
I would think $6000 is a bit steep for a mis-matched rig. Alittle over half that would be a skosh more realistic.

Ron

Roadkill · 07-10-2004, 09:35 PM

It might be the difference in the type of wood, but the discoloration of the stock vs the grips is very remarkable, especially since they are all numbered together. As far as the rest of it, the leather looks good but the stamp should be more faded, there was a 1917 artillery for sale in a real backwoods local shop a few years ago, was on consignment for $1500, I looked at it several times and it was perfect. Bring back by local WWI vet, he had died, he was an artillery officer, local bank offical, kept it stored in the bank. Family sold it.

rk

Pete Ebbink · 07-10-2004, 09:45 PM

Well...here is my guestimate of value :

1918 LP-08 w/2 matching mags.........$ 2400
(Assuming grips are replacements...)

Leather - dated 1916.................$ 1200

Wooden stock.........................$ 350-400

TM-08 drum mag w/cover...............$ 1200

Just do not see it at $ 3000...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Smith · 07-10-2004, 09:54 PM

Pete, I forgot about the mag and cover. That would bring it up considerably. I still think $6000 is a stretch. And judging from the buyers feedback, one, and it sucks. I seriously doubt that it's a done deal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Ron

wterrell · 07-10-2004, 10:07 PM

Concerning the grips, whenever any component of a collectible item is listed as "correct" it means that it is a replacement.

Navy · 07-10-2004, 11:41 PM

Grips are over-cleaned beech; they should be serialed to piece. Telling that there is no mention of this. I have a *big* problem with the ink stamp under the flap of the holster and the holster in general. Just doesn't seem right to me...far, far too new. But the big problem is the holster being the wrong color! I have owned several 1917 vintage un-issued arty holsters and they were always light tobacco gold colored, NEVER burgandy. I suspect 1920's commercial holster that Waffenfabrik Amerikanishe has boosted with some bogus stamps.

At $6K, someone has far more $$ than ....

Tom A

George Anderson · 07-11-2004, 08:11 AM

I think it's 100% assuming the mags are correct; should they include a suffix? Didn't the inclusion of suffix become a little haphazard later in the war?

The TM08 looks like a killer. Type I's with a cover are probably good for $1400. That leaves $4600 for the rig. 1918s are somewhat less common. In 2004 that may well be what it is worth. I sure as hell hope so.

Tom's remarks about post war leather bring one other question to surface, is it marked "GERMANY"? An outfit this nice and dated 1918 would cause me to do some hard looking in that area.

Ammo's worth $200. I think I know who the seller is, if I am correct, the piece is surely 100%.

Ron Wood · 07-11-2004, 11:24 AM

Thanks George. It seemed to be a good rig to me too, but I thought as I am getting older I might be going a bit soft in the head and not being critical enough. Glad to see that someone else thinks it is OK too (or perhaps we are both nuts?!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

PAOLO · 07-11-2004, 11:27 AM

George

I don't feel so good when I see a spare mag of a LP08 with a +. I asked Mr. Kornmayer and Dr. Sturgess about, and both they told me(Mr.Kornmayer referred also to the experience of MR. Joachim Goertz) that nowere they were able to find any track of the fact that the LP08 were issued with "original" spare mags (numbered to the gun and with one or more? + ). In their opinion the LP08 wre issued with the shoulder stock, the holster, the shoulder sling, the tool and the rod. Nothing else. the mag and pouch were added after, from other sources. They had always seen unnumbered spare mags, either DWM or Erfurt ones, in the pouches with LP08 rigs. This does not mean that early in the war the matter was different,you know that LP08 were early carried also in belt holsters,without stocks.....
Hope this helps.

Imperial Arms · 07-11-2004, 12:44 PM

In my opinion, I feel that the rig is correct but I would have preferred to see a Type II TM-08 with a 1918 dated rig. Nonetheless, the condition of the the Type I TM-08 is great.

In regards to the spare magazines, I question slightly the '+' on the second/third spare magazine, but the magazine would need to be examined closely. It is reasonable to say that spare magazines for LP-08 rigs could have been numbered or simply left blank. However, if the rig has three magazines in total and two are correct, that is good enough - I would not complain!

Can someone else please comment on the K.R.A.G inside the flap? Is that the mark of a commercial reseller?

Albert

drbuster · 07-11-2004, 02:55 PM

With respect to the "+" sign on the spare magazines, if they were added by an armorer in the field, I don't think anyone would be able to say 90 years later. I don't believe I have read or heard of either way being correct or incorrect. I agree that the fonts of the numbers and the apparent age of the wooden bottoms, stain, etc. would all have to taken into account. After all, an LP08 rig with two or three original matching clips would be worth sigficantly more to collectors than mismatched or one matched magazine.

07-10-2004, 02:01 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Nice Rig... http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=20456726

07-10-2004, 08:14 PM	#3
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	It is alittle suspicious that the grips don't show any wear or marks.They look alittle too pristine. Not even soiled from handling. I would think $6000 is a bit steep for a mis-matched rig. Alittle over half that would be a skosh more realistic. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

07-10-2004, 09:54 PM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Pete, I forgot about the mag and cover. That would bring it up considerably. I still think $6000 is a stretch. And judging from the buyers feedback, one, and it sucks. I seriously doubt that it's a done deal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

07-10-2004, 10:07 PM	#7
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Concerning the grips, whenever any component of a collectible item is listed as "correct" it means that it is a replacement. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-11-2004, 11:24 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	Thanks George. It seemed to be a good rig to me too, but I thought as I am getting older I might be going a bit soft in the head and not being critical enough. Glad to see that someone else thinks it is OK too (or perhaps we are both nuts?!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-10-2004, 07:25 PM	#2
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	An almost 90 year old military weapon that looks this good, I would be a little skeptical. The grips look too good. Before I would spend 6k I would want to see more detailed pictures and a three day inspection. Any other opinions? Also, the guy that bought it doesnÃ¢??t have a very rating.

07-10-2004, 09:35 PM	#4
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	It might be the difference in the type of wood, but the discoloration of the stock vs the grips is very remarkable, especially since they are all numbered together. As far as the rest of it, the leather looks good but the stamp should be more faded, there was a 1917 artillery for sale in a real backwoods local shop a few years ago, was on consignment for $1500, I looked at it several times and it was perfect. Bring back by local WWI vet, he had died, he was an artillery officer, local bank offical, kept it stored in the bank. Family sold it. rk

07-10-2004, 09:45 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Well...here is my guestimate of value : 1918 LP-08 w/2 matching mags.........$ 2400 (Assuming grips are replacements...) Leather - dated 1916.................$ 1200 Wooden stock.........................$ 350-400 TM-08 drum mag w/cover...............$ 1200 Just do not see it at $ 3000... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-10-2004, 11:41 PM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Grips are over-cleaned beech; they should be serialed to piece. Telling that there is no mention of this. I have a big problem with the ink stamp under the flap of the holster and the holster in general. Just doesn't seem right to me...far, far too new. But the big problem is the holster being the wrong color! I have owned several 1917 vintage un-issued arty holsters and they were always light tobacco gold colored, NEVER burgandy. I suspect 1920's commercial holster that Waffenfabrik Amerikanishe has boosted with some bogus stamps. At $6K, someone has far more $$ than .... Tom A

07-11-2004, 08:11 AM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,771 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I think it's 100% assuming the mags are correct; should they include a suffix? Didn't the inclusion of suffix become a little haphazard later in the war? The TM08 looks like a killer. Type I's with a cover are probably good for $1400. That leaves $4600 for the rig. 1918s are somewhat less common. In 2004 that may well be what it is worth. I sure as hell hope so. Tom's remarks about post war leather bring one other question to surface, is it marked "GERMANY"? An outfit this nice and dated 1918 would cause me to do some hard looking in that area. Ammo's worth $200. I think I know who the seller is, if I am correct, the piece is surely 100%.

07-11-2004, 11:27 AM	#11
PAOLO User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Cremona, Italy Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	George I don't feel so good when I see a spare mag of a LP08 with a +. I asked Mr. Kornmayer and Dr. Sturgess about, and both they told me(Mr.Kornmayer referred also to the experience of MR. Joachim Goertz) that nowere they were able to find any track of the fact that the LP08 were issued with "original" spare mags (numbered to the gun and with one or more? + ). In their opinion the LP08 wre issued with the shoulder stock, the holster, the shoulder sling, the tool and the rod. Nothing else. the mag and pouch were added after, from other sources. They had always seen unnumbered spare mags, either DWM or Erfurt ones, in the pouches with LP08 rigs. This does not mean that early in the war the matter was different,you know that LP08 were early carried also in belt holsters,without stocks..... Hope this helps. __________________ PAOLO

07-11-2004, 12:44 PM	#12
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	In my opinion, I feel that the rig is correct but I would have preferred to see a Type II TM-08 with a 1918 dated rig. Nonetheless, the condition of the the Type I TM-08 is great. In regards to the spare magazines, I question slightly the '+' on the second/third spare magazine, but the magazine would need to be examined closely. It is reasonable to say that spare magazines for LP-08 rigs could have been numbered or simply left blank. However, if the rig has three magazines in total and two are correct, that is good enough - I would not complain! Can someone else please comment on the K.R.A.G inside the flap? Is that the mark of a commercial reseller? Albert

07-11-2004, 02:55 PM	#13
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	With respect to the "+" sign on the spare magazines, if they were added by an armorer in the field, I don't think anyone would be able to say 90 years later. I don't believe I have read or heard of either way being correct or incorrect. I agree that the fonts of the numbers and the apparent age of the wooden bottoms, stain, etc. would all have to taken into account. After all, an LP08 rig with two or three original matching clips would be worth sigficantly more to collectors than mismatched or one matched magazine.