LugerForum Discussion Forums my profile | register | faq | search
upload photo | donate | calendar

Go Back   LugerForum Discussion Forums > Luger Discussion Forums > Lugerforum Archive

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 07-24-2001, 05:32 PM   #21
MikeP
User
 
MikeP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: ILL
Posts: 686
Thanks: 36
Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts
Default Re: Dok! I do not agree!

My take--This is a discussion forum on the study, collecting, and whatever else there is on the subject of German Lugers--We have agreed to the ban of the "N" subject and that is fine with me as it is an unresolvable issue. Anything beyond that is uncomfortable to me.


A man is as good as his word-period-bad experiences are as important to us as a group as good ones-another day in the life. I agree that while personal disputes and feuds have little place here, legitimate issues such as fakings or shaftings are fair.


There have been references in the past to this-I remember a family operation refered to as "fakes or us."


Discussions are just that-I object to the idea of "prettying things up" by *****footing around unpleasant issues. Some of the current Luger demigods have been known to engage in less than legitimate transactions and this should not be relegated to the dark.


MikeP



MikeP is offline  
Unread 07-24-2001, 05:43 PM   #22
G.T.
Lifer
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Chandler Arizona
Posts: 3,483
Thanks: 1,282
Thanked 3,579 Times in 988 Posts
Default Re: Dok! I do not agree!

Hi Bill! I would agree to your thoughts on this issue if the good guy story's and the bad guy story's carried the same weight! But in reality, especially 1n an area as contoversial and diverse as collectable firearms.....they simply do not! A good deal done,is fleeting! Snakebite is forever! It is the same, any time a posse rides, right or wrong, somebody is going to get hung! And more times then not, their innocent! I do not wish to interfere with anyones rights or desire to make his case known, I just feel that problems that arise when buying collectables should be handled and resolved between the two principle parties involved! Whether it be an individual or a dealer! I will NEVER post anyone's name on this forum in an effort to cast a bad light on them or their business! Even if I have to travel to solve the problem, I will! I don't believe the intent of this forum is to debate dirty laundry! Do no harm! those words aren't just limited to the medical profession ....also who is watching the watchers? Till....later....G.T.



G.T. is offline  
Unread 07-24-2001, 09:34 PM   #23
bill m
User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 385
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Dok! I do not agree!

Hi GT,

My whole point here is that some are referring, which is actually advertising, for certain dealers. They give these certain few a big blow-up and it is very good for their business, especially with the newbie's. If these deals are not "such a great deal", then it would be nice if this was shared with up, for us to make up our own minds. This is all about money and selling, and if no one speaks out, then some new collector is going to get hurt. Some of us have some experience and if we get hurt, it is our own fault, but the new collectors need some help. I do not agree with you on working out the problem silently, and then going on as nothing ever happened. I look at this more as this guy is trying to ruin my hobby. One of the guys referred to really tried to take me a few years ago. I called him and visited, asked about the guns he had for sale, and agreed to buy a couple of them. When I received them, they were import marked and dip blue finished. I called and sent them back, and did get my money back, minus shipping. The guy was hoping I didn't know anything about Lugers. Did he represent them honestly? No! He forgot to say they were refinished and import marked, which just happens to be a very important point. When I called him and said they were refinished and import marked, all he said was "I guess I should have mentioned that"! The more these dealers are made to take their stuff back, the better for all of us, as they will start representing their stuff for what it really is. I respect your opinion GT, and you have some very good points, but I do not agree with them completely.



bill m is offline  
Unread 07-24-2001, 09:37 PM   #24
Thor
User
 
Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
Posts: 4,583
Thanks: 958
Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts
Default Re: Luger Dealers Reputations

I have been lucky! Every Luger deal I have done, I have been happy with in the end! That is not to say I was always happy during the deals, but in the end I was very happy! Look for a dealer with an excellent return policy! If they are willing to take the weapon back with no arguement that is way above what many will do. I would hate to have bought a gun from a guy only to walk back to his place with gun and hand and he throws up his hands and says"All sales final, you bought it, you keep it" That has never happened to me. But I am not naive enough to think it never will. The more I learn, the better I think I will make buying decisions that are increasingly more crucial in our hobby. ~THOR~



Thor is offline  
Unread 07-24-2001, 09:37 PM   #25
BILL
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 826
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Restored Lugers-Fakes-enhanced conditon

Bill S, you are saying exactly what G.T. is saying..'Let the buyer beware!'(loose translation, G.T.).. This is good, it is time honored and tested and is the only way to achieve success when making a Luger purchase. Posting the name of 'Good vs. Bad' dealers here would not be of any value to anyone. The deal you describe in detail regarding the refinished Luger is something that the dealer may not even have been aware of. If you were to post his name as a 'badguy' then you would have done him a grave injustice. Even if you later attempted to recant and say that he really isn't a 'badguy' because he did offer you a better deal later on, you couldn't undo the injustice. For all who want to start posting negative feedback I would suggest that you stay with eBay where this is a common practice. All reputable Luger dealers that I would deal with have a cheerful refund policy. Let's keep this forum focused on learning more about Lugers so we can make informed decisions more easily. The smarter we are the less likely we will be to be disappointed. If I ever sell you anything that you aren't happy with let me know and I will take it back in a heartbeat. (Shoot, I have been known to take things back even when people were happy with them).



BILL is offline  
Unread 07-24-2001, 10:31 PM   #26
G.T.
Lifer
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Chandler Arizona
Posts: 3,483
Thanks: 1,282
Thanked 3,579 Times in 988 Posts
Default Re: Dok! I do not agree!

Hi Bill! I also see your points, and they are well stated and tactfully presented....although we differ in some aspects, I too, respect your position! Till....later....GT



G.T. is offline  
Unread 07-24-2001, 10:41 PM   #27
Dok
RIP
 
Dok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out)
Posts: 1,626
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default No, you certainly haven't Luke...

and I am not opposed to allowing members to vent their frustration over a given transaction. If I remember a while back Frank Rial revealed that he had been "taken" and shared that info with us.


I think that was valuable and useful information, and served to warn the newbies in the group. I agree with bill m, new users/collectors need all the help they can get, but like G. T. it's not my desire to be the Lone Ranger and to right all wrongs.


I still come back to the position, that if an individual feels he has been wronged, and wants to air that here, I think we should allow that... whether we do anything about it is a whole "nuther" matter...


I myself, had a problem with Marstar a while back, and was unable (due to circumstances) to get my needs met, so I vented on the Forum. To my surprise a number of other members suddenly jumped in with their own stories that were not too dissimilar from mine.


So what appeared to be an isloated incident then looked more like a pattern of behaviour, and I think it is important for people have that info at ther disposal, I certainly would want it, if it was offered.


I don't believe we should do anything above and beyond allowing someone the bandwidth, with the caveat that perhaps if I am recommending this person as a reputable vendor, I (like GT) would definitely want to get to the bottom of it, because I don't want to be recommending someone (in all innocence) if there is a high likeilhood for a problem.


But at the end of day, I still think the onus rests with the member, and whether he feels he wants to share his story.



Dok is offline  
Unread 07-24-2001, 10:59 PM   #28
Dok
RIP
 
Dok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out)
Posts: 1,626
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default I don't believe we are talking about...

having a GOOD vs BAD list, merely allowing members to post about their experience, and thereby allowing us to draw whatever conclusions we may from that. If that's not what we are about here, then it's I who am confused.



Dok is offline  
Unread 07-24-2001, 11:27 PM   #29
DAVID
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Debary, FL.
Posts: 129
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: returns no names

I have had to return a luger within the last month.


I sent a letter with my funds and license. In the letter, I specified my understanding that the luger was all matching including the magazine.


What I got was a luger with a matching magazine and with the trigger and hold open mismatched.


I returned the pistol for a prompt refund, but am out $50.00 shippings.


Well known dealer. Why should I respect this dealers reputation when he cost me $50.00 to look at at mismatched luger. my 2 cents. David



DAVID is offline  
Unread 07-25-2001, 12:13 AM   #30
Luke
User
 
Luke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NC - USA
Posts: 1,239
Thanks: 0
Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts
Default Re: I don't believe we are talking about...

I believe we already have a good/bad list . . . sort of.

Under "Links & Resources" some folks get a little gold star and others get a little yellow triangle.


On the woodworking forum in which I participate, we do not have a good/bad list; but members are free to fully express their opinions about companies, dealers, and products. When I first got into woodworking in a serious way and joined the woodworking forum, I found these comments to be useful; not to be taken as gospel, but helpful pointers relating to the potential location of pitfalls.



Luke is offline  
Unread 07-25-2001, 12:23 AM   #31
Johnny Peppers
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calion, Arkansas
Posts: 1,042
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default Re: Luger Dealers Reputations

Ted,

I was thinking that just about the time I found this forum that you were having trouble with a fake police Luger. I remember something about Jan Still verifying the fact that it was not right. Was the pistol ever proved right or wrong, or have I slept too much since that time?



Johnny Peppers is offline  
Unread 07-25-2001, 12:31 AM   #32
Thor
User
 
Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
Posts: 4,583
Thanks: 958
Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts
Default Re: Luger Dealers Reputations

The German Connection said it was faked, Jan Still said it was faked based on a Brass rivet pin, Patrick thought some of them MIGHT have been replaced (the sear bar) with a brass in lieu of steel pin. That was enough for me to ask to return the Luger to Ralph Shattuck who I had bought it from. The Brass pin rivet was a new topic as far as I knew and as hard and long as it took me to extract the information, seemed like nobody was absolutely sure of it. I called Ralph Bristling for a fight with him, and AFTER 5 WEEKS after the purchase, he calmly said, "Ted, if you are not 100% happy, you can return it for a full refund, or trade on some other Lugers, no questions asked" I elected to trade this one suspect Luger for two nice Mausers, one a very nice 41 date 42 code (only 7000 made) In the end I was extremely happy with the deal and no questions were asked! You cant ask for a better return policy than that. Since then I have bought 2-3 Lugers from Ralph and have always been thrilled with them! I know some of the veteran posters have already heard this story several times, but since you asked! There you go! I will be buing another collection piece from him and just bought a shooter that is super! I am very pleased with the WOL. Thor



Thor is offline  
Unread 07-25-2001, 12:33 AM   #33
BILL
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 826
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: I don't believe we are talking about...

Luke, I think it is somewhat different here. Some of our most knowledgeable collectors are also dealers and have had many private dealings with other members on this forum. When members praise an individual for a good deal all is well and the dealer, who is also a collector, contributes his/her knowledge to the group. When things go sour on a private deal and it becomes public then the Scud missiles and hand grenades start to fly. No one wants an environment like that (well, some might). I think we can all agree that this is too valuable a forum to let it degrade over issues that can and should be conducted privately. No one can stop you from saying what you want but it would be a shame to see this forum lose a knowledge base that is immeasurable. Maybe we should all think about nuturing this site and self monitor what we say. Think about the alternative.


"Take me to your Luger!"



BILL is offline  
Unread 07-25-2001, 01:23 AM   #34
Jesse
User
 
Jesse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SW VA
Posts: 103
Thanks: 6
Thanked 8 Times in 2 Posts
Default WOW!!!!I didn't see this coming!!

Well To start off, I did not lose any money just my optimism. I was quoted the $1800 on the phone and by email. But when I called to make the finial arrangements

I was told he would have to ask $2400 because he would have to make something off of the deal, I said I did not have the extra $600 and was told I could put it on layaway. I was discouraged at this point and said Thank You and good-bye. I do give the dealer some credit B/C he did just get the Luger in from and estate collection and it did belong to a very famous person. I just felt I should have not been given a price and then it get changed as it did.


Jesse



Jesse is offline  
Unread 07-25-2001, 01:40 AM   #35
Big Norm
RIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,864
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Default Re: I don't believe we are talking about...

So many opinions on this subject. I am confused as to who I support. I believe that this forum has a lot of good learning in it. I am not exactly a newbie (9 years as a collector) but I am still learning. I vote that we take the good, the bad and the ugly and discuss them on this forum. Of course, we should try to keep the discussion civilised and not adopt a hostile attitude. The key word here is discuss. This forum is a learning experience for all. Not everybody can contact Jan Still or Ralph Shattuck for their opinion on a gun. People have to learn someplace. The forum fills that slot.


I have done my share of complaining on this forum about dealers and I have complimented some. There is a guy on the forum that I almost had a transaction with, but didn't. I have never mentioned his name and won't. Some people here think he is pretty good. But I don't want to get in a public argument with him over a transaction that didn't occur. But a public discussion over this guys unusual policy would make an interesting discussion on the forum. Note, the key word is "discusion". Maybe, some time in the far future, I will say something in a generic generalized way to hear other members views, but not now. I am keeping in mind a comment by DOK about "vested interest". I respect DOK and don't want to get him in the middle of something.

Big Norm



Big Norm is offline  
Unread 07-25-2001, 02:28 AM   #36
BILL
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 826
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: I don't believe we are talking about...

Since there is no governing agency here (and maybe we don't want too much censorship) we should all be doing our level headed best to make this as hospitable and friendly a place as possible. I am being selfish when I say this, but I spend a lot of time here and have tried to maintain a civil attitude towards even the most controversial of my cohorts. I challenge anyone to find a better place to discuss Lugers on the internet. We have the best of the best right here on a regular basis. For the most part, we all treat each other with respect. We all have our 'hot buttons', our pet peeves, our opinions and the values we live by. These are different for everyone here. What makes some happy really rips others apart. I cannot be a spokesperson for anyone here but myself but I sincerely believe that we all need to take responsibility for our words that we post here. Originally, this site did no endorsements of any kind. Hopefully we have not gone so far to make everyone happy that we have turned into a consumer report for Luger deals. People asked for a classified section and we got it. People asked for a resources section and we got it. We have pictures and technical data. We have resident experts on just about every facet of Lugers that exists. Hopefully we can appreciate this special interest website to the point where we rise above smearing anyone over unethical business practices. It has taken a long time for this site to get where it is and it would be a sad commentary if we can't share information here without feeling it's OK to poison the well. For those of you who don't know me, I don't get up on a soapbox unless I feel it is warranted and worthwhile.


"Take me to your Luger!"



BILL is offline  
Unread 07-25-2001, 07:52 AM   #37
Luke
User
 
Luke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NC - USA
Posts: 1,239
Thanks: 0
Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts
Default Re: I don't believe we are talking about...

Bill,

Sure hope that I didn't come across as an advocate of dissention on this forum; and if anyone read it that way, I offer my apology . . . . . and a correction.

To the contrary, I agree with you that this forum is the BEST and extremely helpful to those of us who are on a steep but rapid learning curve, and I would not want ANYTHING to change that.

Luke





Luke is offline  
Unread 07-25-2001, 12:39 PM   #38
Dok
RIP
 
Dok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out)
Posts: 1,626
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default WELL WE'VE HAD A GOOD AIRING...

of our opinions, and it appears that we have a wide diversity of opinion. I propose we put this matter before the Board of Directors of the Luger Forum who will decide what is in the best interest of the Luger Forum and the membership as a whole.


Dok



Dok is offline  
Unread 07-25-2001, 12:41 PM   #39
Big Norm
RIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,864
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Default Re: I don't believe we are talking about...

Bill,


I agree totally with you. I tip my coffee cup to you.

Big Norm



Big Norm is offline  
Unread 07-25-2001, 12:50 PM   #40
Dok
RIP
 
Dok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out)
Posts: 1,626
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default One usually tips one's hat... :)

do you wear a coffee cup on your head?



Dok is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2023, Lugerforum.com