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Unread 02-01-2006, 12:23 AM   #41
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Albert, Jack was kind enough to bring this pistol to my home on several occasions so we could marvel at it, strip it down and photograph it. Regardless of any photographic abnormalities you may see, I want to assure all who look at these photo's that this pistol is exactly as it left the Krieghoff factory. I have looked at my share of Luger pistols, both original and refinished. I stake what small reputation I have that this pistol is 100% original and correct. I have looked into every crevice and well, down the barrel and under the grips. This is as good as it gets. It is actually a rare opportunity to observe an original excellent condition P code Krieghoff.
Jack was fully aware that some would question various facets of this pistol and he is prepared for these inquiries. He had some hesitation about sharing it with the membership because of the doubt that might arise. I assured him it would indeed happen but if there was any that I might answer I would do so. So...Look at this pistol and rest assured, it is as it should be as far as original bluing and straw. I know little about Krieghoffs and like Pete only posses an S code. I do know that this one is a rare beauty. Jerry Burney
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Unread 02-01-2006, 02:54 AM   #42
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OK, I am almost certainly talking through my hat here since Krieghoffs are WAY out of my league, but here are some observations and I will await comment from those who know what they are talking about.

The chamfer in the toggleknob holes is typical Krieghoff and looks OK to me. Also, the star looks like a stamp and not an engraving to me.


So much for the positives, now for the display of my ignorance.

One thing that bugs me a little bit is the apparent uneven radius around the forward toggle link to breechblock pin, or is it just my eye?


Now for the way out WAGs:

Except for the sideframe inscription, which looks kosher to me, this piece shouts DWM. Lets start with the toggle logo. The arms of the anchor extend beyond the HK monogram. On all the die types in Gibson except Type A, the right arm of the anchor points directly to the bottom of the right leg of the K. It isnâ??t a Die Type A because the handle of the dagger is too long and the blade is symmetrical and not flat on the left side. To me it looks like the logo on the totally DWM produced serial #9124i shown in Gibson and Kenyon (a really rare example and may be a prototype).


Next, the breechblocks also smack of DWM. The bottom forward part of the bolt face on a Krieghoff is very nearly uniformly round. On a DWM there is a pronounced flat at the bottom. On the 7.65 example, it is clearly present. On the 9mm example it is a little less pronounced but definitely there. As an aside, the hole in the bottom of the breechblock I have only seen on those modified by the Finnsâ?¦just an observation.


Lastly, the stock lug groove looks more DWM than Krieghoff. The runout at the top is a little more pronounced than usually encountered, but has the appearance of DWM rather than the nice finished stop of a Krighoff.


That's my story...fire away.
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Unread 02-01-2006, 06:09 AM   #43
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Okay,

Ehm. After reading some explanations and seeing the images, my first impression is that this pistol started off as a DWM commercial police version, could well have been a 7.65 version originally, which has been modified to give the appearance of a Krieghoff.

As Albert noted, the sideplate is a buffed replacement and I don't like the presence of signs of police modifications. I agree with Ron that the details are more in line with a DWM.

I think the problem is that the pistol has been built up using both Krieghoff and DWM parts.
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Unread 02-01-2006, 03:02 PM   #44
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If I have not totally alienated Jerry and Jack, I would like to prevail upon their good graces and ask for an additional photo. I would like to see the frame where the trigger guard meets the front grip strap.
I am not ready to write this one off as a "build up" just yet. The sear safety plug and the WaA66 are troubling, but the toggle logo leads me down a different path. I do wish that John D. would wade in on this.
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Unread 02-01-2006, 08:19 PM   #45
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Ron, I cannot speak for Jack of course...He predicted that his pistol would be torn asunder. This pistol has many interesting fascets and may well have been made at Krieghoff from some DWM parts. I will say once again, I have examined the totality of this pistol under the best light and magnification. It is not a "put together". Nor is it refinished. It IS so fresh as to be right off the factory floor. Both muzzles are in the white.
It does have some fascinating aspects, the Police sear safety holes. the Police mag. The Wa on the right side of the 4" cannon. The .30 Cannon. I cannot explain certain interesting things about this pistol. I do know that as good as the photo's are, they do not do this pistol justice. As a psudo scientist and historian I welcome opinions of all kinds as long as they are kept civil. So far they have been and I appreciate that. . I too would like to hear from John D and or Tom A.
Jack has sent the photo's I took to a preminant Krieghoff expert of World renown and is waiting to get his take on it. Already, preliminary opinions are positive. I will let Jack expound on this if he sees fit.
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Unread 02-02-2006, 04:50 AM   #46
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Hi,

The interesting bit about the sear safety holes is that these modifications were made to police pistols by police arsenals, as far as I know.

Basically, this would make it very questionable for those parts to have originated from DWM leftovers, being reused by Krieghoff.

So I think the 9mm receiver at least raises some questions, which is funny, because it would have been more logical when the .30 receiver had the police sear safety hole.

It's a very interesting combination and being a commercial version doesn't make research easier. Because on the commercial market, basically, everything can and will be done. No tight military contract limitations.

Are both Krieghoff toggle marks identical?
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Unread 02-02-2006, 05:41 PM   #47
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Ron,

At least your question was completely valid. Here is a shot of the area you asked: where the trigger guard meets the th front grip strap.

Hope it doesn't give you "Bad vibes" because they are just not good for one's health.
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Unread 02-02-2006, 07:02 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ron Wood
....I do wish that John D. would wade in on this.
I am watching and reading... Unfortunately - I haven't had the time to write the reply this thread deserves. I will - I promise!!!

I'm writing this from a terminal at work (at my other job) - logged in from their systems through mine... I get home tonight about 10PM - so if I have some time to collect my thoughts - I'll try then..? If not - it will probably be Sunday - as that is my one day off..??

John D.
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Unread 02-02-2006, 08:09 PM   #49
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All,


1. I don't like the looks of the star
2. The stock lug is unlike any of my Kriegs.

Will do more study as time permits.

Tom A
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Unread 02-02-2006, 11:23 PM   #50
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Jack,
My vibes are good most of the time regardless of the situation! And, by the way, although the shine makes it a bit difficult to say 100% for sure, the triggerguard does appear to have a Krieghoff flare. Thanks for the extra photo.
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Unread 02-02-2006, 11:53 PM   #51
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Tom,
Best wishes and prayers for your wife.
Ron
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Unread 02-03-2006, 06:55 AM   #52
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Ditto on the wishes and prayer.
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Unread 02-11-2006, 12:58 PM   #53
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Default John D. Opnions...???

John D.,

Any opinions...?
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Unread 03-27-2007, 02:39 PM   #54
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Default Another One...

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11216
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Unread 07-24-2007, 12:39 AM   #55
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P59 discussions continued over on Jan's GunBoards toward the middle of this thread...same gun, new owner...UNFORTUNATELY...

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12204
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Unread 07-24-2007, 07:51 AM   #56
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"WOW"
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Unread 08-07-2007, 10:36 PM   #57
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Hi John D.,

Any belated comments on this P59 HK Luger ?

As you may or may not know, it has passed through 2 Owner hands since it first appeared here on the Luger Forum.

Your expertise would certainly help...I have no problem being all "wrong" about P59. I think the current owner would probably appreciate your opinions as well.
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Unread 08-07-2007, 10:41 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete Ebbink
Hi John D.,

Any belated comments on this P59 HK Luger ?

As you may or may not know, it has passed through 2 Owner hands since it first appeared here on the Luger Forum.

Your expertise would certainly help...I have no problem being all "wrong" about P59. I think the current owner would probably appreciate your opinions as well.
Hi Pete,

Nope - I have no belated comments in public, but thanks for asking! I was asked, in private several questions - which I answered...

And yes, I am aware it changed hands..

Best to you!

John D.
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