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Unread 12-07-2001, 09:54 AM   #1
sidhartha
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Default german youth luger

I have recently inherited a ww2 luger. It is an S/42dated 1937 over the chamber with all matching numbers (including the clip and grip panels)and a german youth insignia on the right grip panel. The gun show only a little holster wear. Mostly on the end of the barrel. The follower in the mag has very little sign of wear and there is still blueing inside the chamber and excelent bore. This leads me to belive it has not been fired much. My father bought this from a guy that brought it back from ww2. My question is could this gun have been issued to a german youth leader? I would like to find out if this is a rare piece as my late father believed or is it just common S/42.

Any information is greatly appreciated.


Sidhartha



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Unread 12-07-2001, 10:45 AM   #2
tom
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Default Re: german youth luger

Your Luger is probably the product of some GI "Trench Art" enhancement. The only weapons issued by the NSDAP to party officials, and a HJ Leader would *definately* be a party official, were Walther PP and PPK, "Der Ehren waffen der NSDAP"(The honor weapon of the NSDAP). This has been extensively researched and documented in the NAPCA publication, AUTOMAG.


There are numerous period photographs of Party officials wearing these as side arms and many pieces extant with have been engraved or etched with Party organizational logos/insignias. Additionally, there are copies of Party documents which have survived that prescribe the pistols, manner and occasion for wearing, etc, etc.


If you decide you wish to swim in this pond, CAVEAT EMPTOR: This field is full of very well done fakes, so if you do not know Z'ackly what you are doing, get competent advice from someone who knows this highly specialized field.



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Unread 12-07-2001, 11:36 AM   #3
TIMOTHY CANNEY
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Default Re: german youth luger

I bought a Luger from Ralph with the NASDAP emblem in the right grip panel. He believed it to be factory applied and a Gestapo gun. While there is no documentation on this, it came out of a very advanced collection. At any rate, I love it!


Tim



 
Unread 12-07-2001, 11:36 AM   #4
The Shadow Knows
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Default GI Modification

Typical of what the GI's did to these guns after the war.


First, you people have to remember that a gun marked P08 or P38 was REICH PROPERTY...It was a court marshal offense to personalize them. [like putting any name/numbers/unit/SS/ or any other crap on them] And, therefore, you have to take a look at any K98-P08-P38 or other issue gun with such B___S___ on them for what they are...... Seller enhancements


They [GIs] got badges/medals/eagles/etc and [usually] punched holes into the holster flap and installed it...after scratching their name in the flap with a knife. others had them put into the grip panels.


The Letter followed by 4 numbers you often see scratched on the holster flap was the GI's LAUNDRY MARK....as 'S2232' would be the first letter of his last name plus the last 4 digits of his serial number.


For a pack of Camels, the German civilians would plate these guns, too. [you had to supply a piece of silver for the plating] Many were not even taken apart..just the 3 major parts were stripped and plated.. [No, Virginia, they are not Hitler presentation guns and there really is a Santa Claus!]


The Civilians were not supposed to possess guns but no one cared if they were doing something...like engraving-plating-making grips+shoulder holsters for a GI.





 
Unread 12-07-2001, 11:41 AM   #5
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Default NSDAP

If it was not a Banner gun, then you were the victim on that purchase. Civilians could not acquire issued weapons..Period. and, the NSDAP were civilians!



 
Unread 12-07-2001, 12:08 PM   #6
TIMOTHY CANNEY
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Default Re: NSDAP

My apologies! It is not a Gestapo Gun, I was confused and typed too fast. It is an s/42 gun,dated. It is rightous, and I trust Ralph's judgement. My mistake. As it has been said, "Anything, litterally, could happen in Germany at that time"


Tim



 
Unread 12-07-2001, 12:34 PM   #7
tom
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Default Re: german youth luger

Their ain't no easter bunny and NSDAP party guns are well documented. Believe what you wish, its a free country.



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Unread 12-07-2001, 12:42 PM   #8
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Default Re: GI Modification

Both my father and father in law were there. My father during the war and Father in law as a member of the constabulary occupying Germany.


What you have said is 100% consistent with their stories to me.


In fact, my father in law had several US weapons-Army Riot guns, thet were "Found on Post" converted to long barrel shotguns and restocked by German gunsmiths. he had to order the barrels from the USA (Stoeger) and the german did the stock work and barrel conversion/rebluing. The US ordinance markings were ground off. All was done for 2 packs of cigarettes. I restored one of these to original configuration several years ago and gave it to my son. The restoration cost considerably more than two packs of smokes.


According to both of these old vets, Germans were forbidden to possess ANY weapon, so GIs took military stuff, medieval swords, cross bows, museum pieces...It sucks to lose a war.


Tom



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Unread 12-07-2001, 01:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: GI Modification

Here again your comments are on target with what I have found to be the case, except one. I have found a fair amount of evidence most of it ancedotal, that officers were allowed to purchase military contract pistols....including Lugers. This was their choice, but seems to have been almost a standard practice in pre WWII Germany (and Imperial). These priviate purchases could be either from commercial or made available military contract. IF anyone has solid evidence that this is absolutly incorrect, I would be very interested in seeing it. By the way, I believe that this situation has little to do with various pins and insignia being put into/on pistol grips. It was never done at the factory or depot and I would say very rarely if ever by the German owner , whether he owned the pistol or was signed for on issue. In other words I agree with you that GI's went rampant doctoring up Lugers and everything they captured.



 
Unread 12-07-2001, 01:18 PM   #10
TIMOTHY CANNEY
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Default Re: german youth luger

Boy!, some of us got up on the wrong side of the old respect/politeness bed this morning. I was in no way saying that the gun was mis-represented by my friend Ralph Shattuck. It is what it is, a neat virtually mint gun. I'd put a picture on the website but it just seems to "call the vultures" as in other members postings. Let's just pull the reigns in a little here! This website is getting a little to pretentious and may scare the new comers to the collection of Lugers off. Maby "I" need to take a break from posting. I certainly didn't want to create an arguement. Just remember, that not all sellers are out to fleece people, just make an honest living. The old addage rings true in collecting: "My stuff is allways valuble, and everyone elses stuff is overpriced and incorrect". Jeeze!!!!



 
Unread 12-07-2001, 01:39 PM   #11
John Sabato
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Default Please do post a photo of your new Luger Tim

There are those of us that love to see quality photos of good Lugers whether they are considered "doctored" or not!


Thanks,


John



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Unread 12-07-2001, 02:42 PM   #12
The Shadow Knows
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Default KRAUT OFFICERS

Yes...they and certain civilians could buy guns ...but, at the proper outlets and with a permit. The Mod HP was made for that purpose as anything marked P.38 or P.08 were the same as our 'GOVERNMENT PROPERTY" marks.


The PP and PPk were the most desireable. The outlets usually had a supply of other pistols like the CZ27-French .32s-etc. I am told you had to know someone to get a Walther.





 
Unread 12-07-2001, 03:50 PM   #13
Art Buchanan
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Default Re: german youth luger

Yes Shadow---I agree with you. From time to time a think I will never look at the forum again. I am reluctant to describe any thing I have for fear the vultures will pick its bones---no matter if I could prove beyond a "shadow of a doubt" that god sent it to me. Seems like some people thrive on looking for so called fakes of things that they will never own and probably couldn't buy if it was original and at dirt cheap price. I think you have an interesting piece. I have a byf 42 that has dice inlaid[the pair had to be cut] like a #11 domino in one grip. It is interesting and fun to wonder who did it. Anyone know if Hitler gave up shooting craps----may these were his? 1 2 3 Jump on it.



 
Unread 12-07-2001, 03:59 PM   #14
Marvin
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Default Re: Please do post a photo of your new Luger Tim

I agree with John, I would love to see photos of your pistol!!!!!


Marvin



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Unread 12-07-2001, 04:02 PM   #15
Steve Lempitski
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Default Do you mean GERMAN officers? (EOM)

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Unread 12-07-2001, 04:07 PM   #16
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Default Very Funny Art ! But I think he probably rolled snake-eyes

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Unread 12-07-2001, 04:16 PM   #17
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Default Re: GI Modification

Tom,


My dad arrived in Europe at the end of the war so he was not in combat with Germany, but while there, he did have a German girlfriend somewhere in Bavaria, as he talked about how much he loved the Black Forest area and Munich. Anyway, on with my story; his girlfriend gave him a Russian Nagant revolver and a Tokarev, both with holsters, which her brother had brought back from the Eastern Front when on leave one time. Since German Citizens were not allowed to own any weapons in late 1945, she was scared that she or other family members would be jailed if cought with having these pistols. She did not know if her brother was alive, or captured, but decided to give him the pistols. The holster for the Tokarev had the belt loops modified to the German style, so I would assume the brother had worn the pistol during the time before they were brought home. This was a bit of luck he had bringing them to the US when returned as GIs were not allowed to bring them without paperwork and dad had to sneak into the US. I wish now he had gotten some paperwork on them.


Marvin



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Unread 12-08-2001, 01:20 AM   #18
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Default Re: german youth luger

Right On Tim, I agree with you.



 
Unread 12-08-2001, 05:13 PM   #19
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Default Re: german youth luger

A couple of years ago a 1939 dated Krieghoff came out of the woodwork and changed hands several times at an inflated price. When it was finally examined by more than one knowledgeable Krieghoff collector it was identified as a fake. Would the Luger collecting community have been better served if these knowledgeable collectors had just let it go on it's merry way, or was it their responsibility as a vulture to identify it as a fake to try and prevent other less knowledgeable collectors from buying a dud.





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Unread 12-10-2001, 01:07 AM   #20
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Default Re: KRAUT OFFICERS

I would like Mr. Canney to relate the story, as best he can recall it, he was told by "Ralph" when he was sold the pistol. I am very interested to hear what he was told. Did someone identify this "Ralph" more specifically?

Thanks.


I just looked inside a new luger photo book last weekend in Virginia and was surprised to see a chromed luger with claims that legit chrome lugers may exist. No claim was made the photographed luger was chromed at the factory (it did not look like a quality job but looked like a typical post-war chrome-job). The carefully made statements ended with a suggestion that a documented legit chrome luger is a valuable prize--of course, no known legit chrome lugers have been validated but that was not mentioned in the text.


Methinks the luger field could use some serious compilation of evidence and information regarding luger identification. World of Lugers and Luges at Random are rather dated, incomplete and in need of correction. Still's books are good for the militaries. Perhaps we should compile a new, updated reference.



 
 

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