1906 Comm. Navy

[gill120]

I have a 1906 Comm. Navy luger w/6 inch barrel. When after disassembling the pistol I noticed two small crowns on the rear of the barrel at the breach. They look like naval crowns any further info would be appreciated regards these marks/proofs. The pistol is serialed in the 51xxx range, can anyone tell me when it was made ? Regards Dave

[Norme]

Are you sure it's not one C/M (Crown over M) and not 2 small crowns? Photos would help.
Norm

[gill120]

i believe they are small crowns, but I had never noticed them before. Why would they be placed in such an obscure place?

[DonVoigt]

Your questions cannot be answered without clear pictures!

[gill120]

Norm& Don , it was all I could do after cleaning my glasses and setting the receiver into the sun light to see , the proofs are crown M but real small on either side of the breach. ( 3-9 position) I don't think I can get one of my cameras to take proper pic of the proofs. You will have to take my word at this time. Any idea when the pistol was made?

[lugerholsterrepair]

Fakes exist. Without a photo you and the rest of us are guessing.

[gill120]

I tried a couple of pictures. here goes. You can see the Crown/M on either side of the breach in pics #2 and #4.

[Mac Cat]

That's a pretty hard place to examine closely! I just tried on my own.

I can't make out anything from these photos.
I wondered if you could get a small dental mirror.

(You can also inexpensive lenses that snap over your cell phone camera.)

[Norme]

Hi David,
Thanks for posting those photos, I think I may be able to shed a little light. Mysterious and hitherto unnoticed small C/M inspection marks were noted in several hidden (internal) locations on 1906 Navies in the 8000 to 9200a range. These would have been assembled in late 1907/early 1908. It's possible that your 1906 Commercial was assembled at about that time. These marks have been recorded in several different internal locations and it is thought that they mark the completion of some minor change in machining procedure. The marks on your gun are the first I have noted in that particular location. I enclose photos of a couple of those hidden marks.
Norm

[lugerholsterrepair]

If these are where I think you say they are, I can see no reason for them. The Crown M is an Imperial Navy acceptance mark. Not really meant to be hidden like this? But one never says never when it comes to Luger's.

The real reason to see these markings clearly is to determine their probable authenticity. Crown M Imperial Navy acceptance marks are often faked. But if I were wanting to fake some I would make them larger and put them where the average buyer would see them easily. Not on the breech face X2? Likely some of the Crown M Imperial Navy acceptance mark experts can tell us something about the breech face placement? Since we will likely never see the marks with any clarity.

[DonVoigt]

I'm not sure if I see the mark, are they actually on the rear of the barrel?
I think I see the one at 3 o'clock; but no detail.

Would have had to be stamped before the barrel was installed, IMO.

I've never seen a mark there- but then I have not looked specifically either!

I cropped your picture, I can just begin to see the Crown.

[gill120]

The question still stands, why are these tiny Crown M s placed on the breech face. Were they using surplus military barrels? Have any other Comm. Navy s been found with these proofs? I would not have noticed them had a not been using a bright light at the breech . The question of year when it was manufactured has been established somewhat. Thanks you for your input, all.

[Norme]

Hi David,
My guess is that the barrel was rejected by Naval inspectors for some reasons unknown, and then diverted to the Commercial production line rather than scrapping it. Years later Kreighoff, another privately owned company, did much the same.
Norm

[gill120]

Have those proofs been found on any of the military 1906 pistol. They sure arent on my 1917 navy barrel.

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by gill120

Have those proofs been found on any of the military 1906 pistol. They sure arent on my 1917 navy barrel.

If Norm's premise is accurate you won't find the "proofs" (inspector's marks) on any military pistol since the marked barrels were probably rejects.
Ron

[Norme]

Originally Posted by gill120

Have those proofs been found on any of the military 1906 pistol. They sure arent on my 1917 navy barrel.

Hi David,
Just to clarify, the Crown/M stamp is an inspection mark, the Crown without an M is a proof mark.
Norm

[Norme]

Hi David,
It's too bad that we can't have clear photos to work with so you will have to be our eyes. Two questions:
1/ Is there a Naval inspection mark (C/M) beneath the barrel and positioned just above the serial number?
2/ Is there a Naval proof mark (Crown) on the left side of the barrel near the breech?
If the answer to both questions is "No", then the barrel failed inspection and was rejected before it was ever attached to a Navy Luger.
If the answer to question #1 is "Yes" and #2 is "No", then the barrel was attached to a Navy Luger which failed proof but the barrel was deemed acceptable for Commercial use.
If the answer to both questions is "Yes" then I give up!
Norm

[gill120]

There does not have any crown M proof on the barrel outside or the receiver. The serial #,the barrel gauge , and B U G proofs are on the barrel one above the other. No other C/M proofs are on the pistol , except where I noted them being. On the barrel shank at the breech end . Regards Dave

[Norme]

Thank you David. It seems likely now that the barrel was rejected by Naval inspectors at the barrel shop, possibly because the chamber was out of spec, too long maybe? If it was deemed as safe to shoot it could well have been relegated to Commercial production. After all, business is business.
Norm