Commercial Luger ID Mystery

[Hugo Borchardt]

Below are detailed photos of my Luger in 7.65 .30. I would like opinions on its proper classification. Is it a 1920 Commercial, a Commercial DWM, a Commercial DWM Rework?

1) It has a 4 3/4" thin barrel. Single witness mark overlaps between barrel and receiver lines up perfectly and the barrel bears matching serial #s.

Page 258 of Mr. Still's Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers mentions 1919-1933 "Commercial Rework Lugers" at the top which are known with various barrels, but not typical. Page 267 says "Some 1920's era Lugers were not in the 4 or letter suffix serial range", and shows an example with serial #1. The barrel and front sight are very similar to the AF one on page 269 and the ones on page 280, 284.

2) Serial # is 628 with no suffix. All matching numbers. Came with a mismatched serial #'d aluminum bottom mag which I swapped with a blank wood bottom mag. Though there are exceptions, all the books I read show 1920 commercials as serial # range in the i to r suffix blocks.

3) The takedown lever has a 28 stamped on front of it. Other commercials I have seen have the serial in a more discrete location, like the bottom.

4) Check out the front sight. the back of it is a different shape and the sight is taller to compensate for the thinner barrel. The rear sight does not appear to be adjustable.

The gun has crown+N proofs on it, though the one on the barrel is hard to read and could be crown over something else but I doubt it.

The gun has too much strawing on it to not be a restraw, but I am not convinced the gun has been completely reblued, if it has it is an old (arsenal?) refinish. The right side of the gun looks near mint; the left side looks rougher, say 80%?

The side plate and toggle pin are not numbered. The rear of toggle and trigger are stamped "28" serial.

just added: c/N receiver proof is horizontal (point gun straight up to read) exactly like the one on page 235 of Mr. Still's Weimar Lugers.
The gun carries no import markings!!!

Your opinions on this piece are much appreciated!

Clark in Nashville TN

[Dwight Gruber]

Clark,

In the context of your descrption, the right receiver is characteristic of military inspection and proof marks being ground away.

Also in this context, the witness mark is probably not a useful forensic indicator.

Is the c/N receiver proof horizontal or veritical?

--Dwight

[Hugo Borchardt]

Dwight:

Thanks for taking time to read and for your reply! So do you think the gun is a 1920 commercial?

The c/N receiver proof is sideways so you have to point the gun straight up to read it. I think this is horizontal.

[Hugo Borchardt]

c/N receiver proof is exactly like the one on page 235 of Mr. Still's Weimar Lugers. Page 258 also mentions 1919-1933 "Commercial Rework Lugers" at the top which are known with various barrels, but not typical. Page 267 says "Some 1920's era Lugers were not in the 4 or letter suffix serial range", and shows an example with serial #1. The barrel and front site are very similar to the AF one on page 269 and the ones on page 280, 284.

[sheepherder]

Marbles front sight on a Tikka barrel??? (WAG)

[LugerVern]

Clark

A study of DWM's font usage on the serial number might help you determine if the gun was made before or after the war.

Your picture would need to be very clear for us to tell however.
Any chance of getting a better picture of both the barrel and frame SN?


Vern

[Hugo Borchardt]

Wow. This is like CSI! Here are the close-up pics of the serial on barrel and front of frame. Hope these are clear enough. Else I can try again.

Thanks for your time!

[Lugerdoc]

The 7.65x120mm barrel and front sight are typical of the M1906 lugers. The none grip safety frame with the horizontal C/N proofing is more typical of that used from 1914 - 1918. Since the serial on the frame & barrel appear to be matching but out of sequence for the period, I would suspect some sort of contract or special order production. TH

[LugerVern]

Clark

The fonts do look like DWM but are not unique enough to determine age. I do see a relieved sear bar and if original would date it post 1916.

What is that on the back of the toggle just above the SN?

Also, is the sear bar serialized?


Vern

[Hugo Borchardt]

I was hoping that was a useful mark on the back of the toggle above the serial, but I am fairly certain it is only a scratch.

Sear bar does not appear to be serialized, neither is firing pin or firing pin extractor.

I stripped it down and ran a magnifying glass all over the inside. Very few additional clues.

F, V, and T and S production markings? on frame behind grips.

Side plate is unnumbered but inside carries a single digit "6" or a "9".

The "Geladen" is only on the left side of the extractor.

Thanks!

[Hugo Borchardt]

Reading Mr. Gruber's commentary on commercial Lugers, I read that "DWM modified the frame of the standard P-08 by eliminating the spur in the recoil spring well, giving the front of the well a flat profile. This change occurred in 1914." This Luger does not have the spur, as compared to my 1908 1st issue military, so I can definitively assume that the gun was not manufactured prior to 1914.

Continuing Mr. Gruber's analysis, "The identification of a particular Luger variation sometimes turns on the characteristic of the proof which has been applied to the gun. This is particularly the case with the 1914 (or 1916) Commercial variation and the 20DWM, identical guns whose sole difference is the orientation of the commercial proof mark - horizontal on the 1914, vertical on the 20DWM." "These figures, and the pattern of reports in the database, suggest to me with high confidence that the proof changeover from lazy c/N to upright c/N occurred well before the end 1916."

The c/n proof on the gun in question is lazy/horizontal, so I am making the assumption that the Gun is pre-1917, and not a 1920 commercial.

However, it has a relieved sear bar, per Lugervern, and would make it post 1916. Of course sear could be a replacement.

Thanks for everyone's comments. I am open to additional analysis of course, and this is a great exercise for me to learn. Currently per LugerDoc, I feel this gun is a special order or contract solely because the serial 628 seems original and does not match expected range, and the gun was manufactured somewhere in late 1916 or early 1917, which is when the c/n proofing was changed from horizontal/lazy to vertical. If the sear bar is not original, then the gun could be a couple years younger, between 1914-1916. The sear bar is not #'d, unless I can't find the # on the interior or exterior (I did not remove it), but the finish is clearly consistent with the receiver.

Another interesting comment from Mr. Gruber is "The changeover range from 1916 to the last lazy c/N pistol reported is 550 guns." This doesn't really matter I guess as my gun is likely not regular manufacture.

It is ashamed the gun does not carry additional obvious clues to the order or contract. I have no explanation for the barrel, which appears an original M1906 type per LugerDoc.

Is it plausible, or just conjecture, that the gun was made in 1916, but using an early receiver barrel that was laying around, perhaps as a special gun for someone? Fonts on the toggle match font on barrel receiver, however, and such a gun would be expected to have dish toggles, and the font on the frame would not match. That makes this theory pretty weak.

At least I can feel pretty good the gun is not a fake, because the culprit could have stamped something cool on it like "Abercrombie" or made it a Navy to enhance the value.

What to classify? "1914 Commercial Special Order/Contract" is the best I can come up with.

Any other comments?

Thanks again - this has been a great learning experience.

Mr. Gruber's commentary is at http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...780#post129780

Clark

[LugerVern]

Clark

Reading your posts over, you did not mention the hold open device?

Is it there and does it have a SN also?


Vern

[Hugo Borchardt]

Edit: This response to Vern was incorrect. The holdopen device has serial #24 on it as I didn't know where to look- see my correction and photos later in thread.

Vern:

The Luger does have the hold open device. I neglected to mention as this is important. It does not appear to have a serial # on the top or bottom of it. I did not try to remove the device and examine the entire thing.

Clark

[LugerVern]

Clark

Could you please post a clear picture of the rear of your gun?

This is the area of interest

Vern

also
Could we see a picture of the upper receiver "lug" , this is the part that fits into the lower front frame well?

thanks

Vern

[Hugo Borchardt]

Apologies for delay. Here are clear pictures of the back of the gun and the lug. Please let me know if these are sufficient.

Thanks!

Clark

[LugerVern]

Clark

Please look at the attached picture, it looks to me that your gun has had some modifications done to it.

I will let others comment on why this was done and how it effects your gun.

The receiver lug may also be an issue.


Vern

[Hugo Borchardt]

Thanks for the photos. From the photos, and by comparing by gun side by side with my 1908 and my 1920 DWMs, I can see that it appears that the two bars that protrude from the back of the lower frame slide that the receiver and toggle slide into (do we have a name for those? rear receiver guide? rear slide?) have been cut off. I will be most interested to hear why such a thing was probably done and what it says about the origin of the gun....

Also by comparing to other pieces I have, the lug has no inspection or other mark on it, and seems a bit rough around the edges, although both the other Lugers I examined did have the same diagonal small nicks protruding from the sides toward the center.

Is it that the receiver type doesn't match the frame type, and they "made it fit"?

Thanks, Vern, for taking time to provide the photos...it is apparent you did that just for this analysis.

Clark

[Hugo Borchardt]

Correction on hold open device serial # - I thought the hold open device was only the triangle thing on the inside of the receiver that holds the toggle open, coupled with the strawed bar attached to it on the right outside of the receiver. After fooling with the clip this morning, I noticed that all or part of the hold open device is built into the lower frame and does have a nonmatching serial #24:

See photos below. I apologize for error in my response above. I'm still a Rookie! I'm going to have to study my parts and names and expected serial locations for each part.

Also take a look at that nasty chip on the holdopen. The collector/shooter index on this gun is dropping fast! Fortunately I didn't pay a lot for the gun, though you guys ought to bill me for this education!

btw: I also noticed the wood bottomed clip I swapped out to this gun is full of grease. Sorry 'bout that. Gotta clean that up.

[LugerVern]

Hi Clark

This may be nothing but if you would like to continue; I would be interested in taking a measurement on the receiver lug height.

The receiver lug is often stamped with a partial SN, this is usually very deep, one of the things to check for is to see if the SN has been removed and in the process the height of the lug lowered.

This is a very often over looked detail and should be part of the review prior to purchase, especially of the more expensive guns.

The diagram is a small part of one picture from John Sabatoâ??s â??Luger Blueprint CDâ?� that is available for sale in the for sale part of this forum. It has saved me a lot of money and I highly recommend it to everyone.

John, hope you donâ??t mind me using it as an example?


Vern

[Hugo Borchardt]

Vern:

I would definitely like to continue the exercise as long as you and others are interested. This is a clinic.

I'm having a hard time making the measurement. Because of the curvature of the barrel, it look like the measurement needs to be taken on the front (barrelside) of the lug to get the 2.3 mm. (13.2-10.9). I'll grab a micrometer from my office and measure the entire expected 24.6 mm from the bottom of the lug to the top of the receiver this afternoon. If there is an easier way to take the measurement, please advise.

I'll also grab a copy of that CD.

Clark