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Unread 04-12-2021, 03:05 PM   #21
whitehat
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Ok Ed..thats a nice reasonable comment... thank you sir. But I don't call people buttercup and nutty..those are personal attacks. Why are some people (and a moderator) allowed to make personal attacks on posters....I never made personal attributions or threats? But the moderator is allowed to get personal.....to my person in an attempt to tell me not to get out of line? Everyone sees his bias and intemperance.

And can you see how all his comments are uniformly adversarial.? He even wants to attack my Kerieghoof...without looking at it closely.

I use logic..1), 2), 3)....to make my case....not comments against specific individuals. Never called anyone a nut case or buttercup...you think that was nice? Respectful? Cant be 2 standards...i hope.

See I have no problem with doubts when presented with an effort of decency and respect....thank you so much...so kind.

I just cant abide drive-by snied comments on a very important and very deep subject. The metal tells the story IMHO. Age leaves halows..and other signs...just having a faker stamp does not make it look old....and guys..they were totally separated for years...and 2 different guys found them...thats new data to the argument.

Mike will tell you the story. Ron will confirm that all the actors in this drama are unknown to each other and honest....since he was always cc'ed on all back on forth between me and mike.

I have no proof other than my photos. Thank you for your kind consideration.

You know I just want the chance everyone else gets here..I am an advanced collector and know a few things...just like you do.

Kenyon and Buxton were my personal friends..I learned everything from them back in the 1990s.

Here is my display I did on Buxton this weekend at Tulsa:
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Unread 04-12-2021, 03:19 PM   #22
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OK, nice. Now how do we explain two boosted magazines?
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Unread 04-12-2021, 03:23 PM   #23
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Jerry look at the serial...commercial production...P1110..."P" means commercial....commercial mags had no proofs....everyone knows that.
Bob Simpson, Dave Rachwal, and Russ Withem looked it over and said it was the best they had ever seen. (no it was not their gun). I guess Bob knows something about Krieghoffs..50 years of seeing commercial Kriegs....he had 5 lesser versions of the same variation from consigners at his table...to compare....And a correct Krieghoff has a thumbprint..like this one...and 3 different tones of blue....that all goes away if reblued.

I had serial number P1122 from Kenyon in 1994...one matched mag...exactly the same characteristics and condition..always regretted letting it go...was given crazy money for it in 1997....so I was glad to get one in same condition with 2 mags...
Put it this way....I was offered twice what I paid for it by a top luger collector at the show...
Russ Withem said he saw the gun in Las Vegas in over 20 years ago..and tried to get it from the same collector that died. Russ is Morphy's top luger consultant....and he knows his stuff up and down...

Why only negative comments? There is a personal thing going on here...and I feel it.
Can you see?....You prove my point.
Put yourself in my shoes.
You should go easy on me...I am one of the guys you talk about in your signature tag...that fought in combat for you for 21 years.
Blow up 3 times.
I just cant figure the hate.
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Unread 04-12-2021, 03:33 PM   #24
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OH! So it's a "commercial." OK, I stand corrected.
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Unread 04-12-2021, 04:12 PM   #25
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Here is the front....showing "p"...I thought the serial was enough..and the commercial proof that....

camera held phone..so not the best
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Unread 04-12-2021, 04:35 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Tinker View Post
Mark, your writing sounds more like Albert than I remember you sounding.
I saw this first on Jans forum and Albert wrote a lot - he has an attacking personality - which is very wearing and yes, I think prejudiced the postings of this find.
I am skeptical of new, wonderful finds. I was very excited to see the 45 luger carbine that Ralph Shattuck showed me, it seemed real to me and I was sorely disappointed to be told it was fake.
---
Hello Edward,

It is not correct to bring up my name to make a remark about my past comments/posts when I have not even made a post in this thread.

People who know me for a long time, recognize me to be a pleasant honest guy. However, I can be harsh or rude at times (against collectors/experts who have attacked me or any item in my collection in the past for no reason without a close examination), but what I have gained over 35+ years in terms of knowledge and experience is quite significant and impressive bearing in mind that I have examined the most rarest German and Austrian pistols and carbines in my hands - except the M1910 .45 Luger - but one day I shall complete the whole mission. I have examined the 'best of the best' from a Mauser Zick-Zack prototype revolver (and carbine) to a Walther AP/MP with a stock.

To be equal and fair about this subject M1900 AE Luger belonging to Mark who I have known for quite a while, I shall be glad to share my expert opinion about the two items.

Happy collecting,
Albert
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Unread 04-12-2021, 08:06 PM   #27
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I wish nothing but good wishes to everyone here. Its a great hobby for free people. Where i live in Italy 6 months a year...you are free only to shut up and pay taxes.
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Unread 04-12-2021, 08:07 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by whitehat View Post
Ok here are the photos of the US test Eagle stock. First time I had my hands on it. Photos clearly show period sherifs of the 1900 era. Halos around all stamp deformations. Age looks absolutely authentic.

(I think that Mike cleaned a little too hard over the numbers....when he got the stock....to read the numbers...but you still can see the age halos
1) gun was not stamped in Germany..was stamped by Springfield armory when they asked to see one of those New fangled Ideal stocks...made for Calvary types.... like them. And yes it was in the 1903-4 period AFTER THE TEST...why? Well...lets see...I GUESS.....They KEPT THE GUN And did not throw it in the trash can! Of course it was on hand for further tests etc.
2) Serifs of the 1900 period are present...so thats a fact to be seen. THese are America style...not european fonts added to grips, stock and mag. The gun has DWM fonts.
3) Sure its conjecture...thanks for that kindness...Not a nice generalization. Without document everything is conjecture...so we have to go off the metal marks and proofs....Like all LUGERS!...how many posts here are based on conjecture over metal proofs..about all of them? Trying to keep my cool here guys.
40 Kind suggestion: Be glad you have these photos and gun to look at....would the forum not want to find a discovery like this?...just because you dont like the guy that discovered it...or his exasperation over honest logic?). Man, cant even get a hand up out of a hole.

I know no one is going to be convinced...because I am not in the club. But its real and this is a great find now that the matched stock has been found.

Even if you dont think its one of the first 2 US test guns listed in Springfield paper above...it a great US military historical find..since its clearly owned and tested by Springfield armory...AT SOME TIME!!!

And if dont think this is one of the 2 test guns..then FACT: there is another 1900 luger with Springfield Armory markings out there in the 5600 range...see my point....see how silly this is?

Anyway I am too old to fight over bull****. I talked with Ron Wood by phone....he said he has more confidence now that the stock has been found with the exact same 1900 era serifs and age halos.

That enough for me.

Just want to document that Mike and I found them both and brought them together again after 120 years! (and from the same Estate in NH). Found gun in 2013 at Omaskgee auction....(with no mention what was under the grips) and mike found the stock at the estate of a famous soup family in NH.

This should be a cause for celebration....not hate.
After observing and comparing the characteristics of the Ideal stock, it is safe to say that it is genuine and once upon a time linked/connected to the M1900 American Eagle Luger serial #5673 which is in Ron's collection. It is exciting for both items to be reunited, now being able to tell a better story with their corresponding markings. I do not think that some one would go into all the time and effort to fabricate a fake for a Luger pistol that its exact whereabouts was unknown.

I suppose that the pistol was delivered to the Ideal Manufacturing Company as a sample and afterwards delivered to an US Board for evaluation or inspection which could explain the government markings and the corresponding serial numbers. Being the only pistol with such markings to survive, I do not think that it would have been part of the US Trial Luger shipments, but it does play an indirect role in the procurement by the US Government for a semi-automatic pistol and a holster that offered a dual purpose.

Based on the features of both items - and both being original - I believe that my opinion is logical and reasonable, but it seems that Ideal stock was not accepted for purchase by the military because a separate pair of smooth grips had to be switched and attached to the pistol which was impractical. For both items to remain in the same region and rejoined after a century adds more knowledge to Lugers and their history.

The mentality of most collectors and experts tends to revolve around value/money and often unfair judgements are made. I have been a victim of similar remarks on one of the rarest items in my personal collection, but there will always be a few bad people trying to trip up our hobby with their ignorance or their books which still spread wrong information. It can often be unfair, but there is a proverb from the Bible that says "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

Happy collecting and the quest for knowledge,
Albert
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Unread 04-12-2021, 08:11 PM   #29
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Then there's the question of how an Ordnance Shell and Flame not designed until 1936 somehow authenticates a pistol, grip or stock allegedly 30 years older??

https://goordnance.army.mil/history/shell_flame.html
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Unread 04-12-2021, 09:44 PM   #30
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M1903a3. I disagree. You said this stuff back in 2013 ..but many forms of stylized bombs existed since 1901. There was never only one type at any period. We do not know what proof stamps Springfield armory had on hand in 1904-09 period. Nobody knows.....you dont..I dont. We have all seen SA bombs in this period of all shapes and sizes. Nobody would be testing an ideal stock past the 1907 period.
Its a strawman argument....we dont know...thats the fact.

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Unread 04-13-2021, 06:48 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1903a3 View Post
Then there's the question of how an Ordnance Shell and Flame not designed until 1936 somehow authenticates a pistol, grip or stock allegedly 30 years older??

https://goordnance.army.mil/history/shell_flame.html
Hi Mike,

With reference to the link you provide above, the Ordnance Shell and Flame was used by European and US armies, including at the time when this M1900 AE Luger pistol was made in Germany and delivered to the USA. For example, a sentence on the web page says "Despite its sole ownership by the Ordnance Branch, multiple designs of the Shell and Flame existed", so it is not unreasonable to say that the design observed on the pistol and the iron of the Ideal stock is suspicious for that period.

Furthermore, it is not a proof mark, so its 'lazy' horizontal position on the pistol is not critical, instead to make it larger and visible to an Evaluation Board since the marking (inside the Ideal grips) 'U.S. Government' is no where on the pistol. The old-style markings on the pistol and stock/holster did not have to match perfectly, and knowledgeable collectors should be able to think and recognize the purpose of these markings instead of negatively questioning the originality of the pistol and the discovered Ideal stock when both are consistent. Most often fakers screw up in this area without knowing the significance of old natural patina and the aging of leather and wood. It is a 'science' and I don't think these marks and number were applied 30+ years later on these two items which had been separated.

However, thanks for the information that you provided which gave me some additional information/knowledge.

Cheers,
Albert
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Unread 04-13-2021, 11:44 AM   #32
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Its good to see some real feed back from Mauser. I am the finder of the Ideal Luger stock. I would like to say that for one, I did not clean the numbered area on the stock. I,m a collector and and not a hack when it comes to cleaning. Please notice that the stock was not even cleaned or oiled. I left it this way to show the true age of the piece as it was found. I,m happy to have reunited the two pieces. They truly belong together. Regards Mike Hashem Old Post Office Antiques Ossipee, NH
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Unread 04-14-2021, 12:59 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_in_VA View Post
The font on the “US PROPERTY” looks less like tirn-of-the-century font on US small arms. I’m far from an expert, but using 19th century US arms and turn-of-the-century US arms, the fonts are generally serifed. Additionally, the letter cited references plates (i.e., illustrations.) Where are they? The could clear up some of the surrounding confusion. Likewise, I read the letter repeatedly but must have overlooked the bit about having to hammer on the toggle to get the action closed. (I further note that no photos of the hammering marks are provided.)
The letter also says the test pistol was badly rusted.
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Unread 04-14-2021, 03:25 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauser 712 View Post
Hi Mike,

With reference to the link you provide above, the Ordnance Shell and Flame was used by European and US armies, including at the time when this M1900 AE Luger pistol was made in Germany and delivered to the USA. For example, a sentence on the web page says "Despite its sole ownership by the Ordnance Branch, multiple designs of the Shell and Flame existed", so it is not unreasonable to say that the design observed on the pistol and the iron of the Ideal stock is suspicious for that period.
Hi Albert. I am well aware the "Shell and Flame" (aka "Flaming Bomb") has been used by the US Army since its inception and even longer in Europe. Indeed, the Ordnance Department is considered the oldest branch of the US Army and had a Shell and Flame as part of its first insignia. However, from the start until after WWI, none of the US designs looked remotely like the subject one. They were characterized by wilder or more "blazing" appearing flames. They also were NOT used on firearms until after 1906 and this particular style until WWII.

I have been collecting US Military firearms for over 50 years, and have spent a good many hours in the Harper's Ferry and Springfield museums as well as many days researching in the Ordnance Department records group in the National Archives.

The first use of a Flaming Bomb on a firearm was on the M1903 Rifles manufactured in late 1905. It was retroactively applied to earlier '03s when they were converted to 30.06. Both Springfield and Rock Island stamped the mark on the top of the barrel behind the front sight. But it was a completely different design than the one discussed here. Both also started using a smaller version on bayonets. The use of these older styles continued through WWI and they also appeared on Eddystone, Remington and Winchester M1917 rifles. Springfield and contractors like Remington and Smith-Corona were still using older ones on the M1903a3 and '03a4 through WWII and the end of production. These Shell and Flames not only differed from the 1936 design, they also differed from each other.

During WWII the official 1936 design started to appear on contractor manufactured items such as bayonets. The only firearm I have seen this exact style used on was a WWII vintage trench shotgun from Winchester.

The only designs used by Springfield bear no resemblance to the one in question.

Quote:
Furthermore, it is not a proof mark, . . .

However, thanks for the information that you provided which gave me some additional information/knowledge.

Cheers,
Albert
I never claimed it was a proof mark, although a very small one was indeed used as a firing proof on barrels, breeches and bolts of '03s
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Unread 04-14-2021, 03:36 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by whitehat View Post
M1903a3. I disagree. You said this stuff back in 2013 ..but many forms of stylized bombs existed since 1901. There was never only one type at any period. We do not know what proof stamps Springfield armory had on hand in 1904-09 period. Nobody knows.....you dont..I dont. We have all seen SA bombs in this period of all shapes and sizes. Nobody would be testing an ideal stock past the 1907 period.
Its a strawman argument....we dont know...thats the fact.
Fact 1: The first use of the Shell and Flames by Springfield on a firearm was on the Barrels of M1903's made in late 1905. It was also retroactively applied to earlier '03s when they were converted to 30.06.

Fact 2: The one used at that time doesn't look remotely like the 1936 design discussed here. This is not mere opinion on my part, it's very well documented. It's easy enough to see what the original one used by Springfield looks like. Museums have many examples, books are full of photos, and the barrels are conveniently dated. I have some in my own collection.

Question: Can you provide another example of Springfield ever using this exact design?
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Unread 04-14-2021, 03:53 PM   #36
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I’m still curious to know how was a stock that was not produced until 1904 available for a test referenced in a letter dated 1899?
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