.30cal Luger cartridge

Herb · 08-10-2002, 05:14 PM

I was just thinking (yea, it does happen occassionally) as to why Georg Luger had to invent a totally new 30cal cartridge when there was the 7.65 Mauser C96 and the 7.65 Borchardt which were proven rounds. The Borchardt and Mauser may have been identical, I have never seen a Borchardt round. Luger's ammo is the same diameter although it is 6mm shorter than the Mauser at 35mm. One would think that as he was using the Borchardt pistol as a start for the Luger design that he would have used the same ammo. I haven't been able to find anything written on this or else I have forgotten it. Any ideas?

unspellable · 08-10-2002, 05:56 PM

The principal reason Georg shortened the cartridge was to make room for the recoil spring in the grip. The Borchardt recoil spring resides in the rear extension that also contains the roller for unlocking the action.

There are no significant differences in diminsions between the Borchardt and Mauser cartridges. The Mauser version was a hotter load, too spiffy for the Borchardt. Actually identifying a Borchardt cartridge today is supposed to involve the details of how the neck is crimped onto the bullet.

Thor · 09-09-2002, 02:34 PM

Range test today on my new 30 Luger lead bullets, I wanted to capture one with a squib load for miking to get a correct diameter. I did this with a 44 Magnum with only 1 gr of medium speed powder and it worked like a champ. I had 4 gallon milk jugs in a row and the bullet only went into the first one. Today with only 7/10th of one grain that is 0.7 gr, less than one grain of the same powder figured I didnt need all 4 jugs, was wrong. That little bullet went through all three of the gallon jugs I had out and sailed off into oblivion. Back to the drawing board I guess. More on this when I have my bullet (I hate driving lead slugs down barrels)

Doubs · 09-09-2002, 03:35 PM

Among the many stories written by Skeeter Skelton was an article about Lugers. One old cowpoke Skeeter met had a .30 Luger and confessed to holding it in high regard. He explained that it was the only pistol he'd ever owned that would shoot through a wagon tongue. Why that was important to him, he didn't explain.

With hardball, they will penetrate quite well. With a properly constructed softpoint or hollowpoint, they can be explosive on thin-skinned varmints.

Four or five years ago, my father and brother were sitting in lawn chairs under a maple tree in Pop's backyard. It was mid-evening.... a nice time of day in Western Maryland in Summer. One of them noticed a fully grown groundhog coming up the edge of the lawn toward them and it was acting strangely. Fearing that it may have rabies, Pop handed my brother a .30 Luger (the same Erfurt I now have) and told him to kill it. My brother got as close as seemed prudent and put the first shot into him. A FMJ, it passed through without any seeming affect. The second shot was a Hornady 85 grain hollow point of the semi-jacketed type that they sold before the current XTP style. I had loaded a box of them for him. According to my father it nearly turned the groundhog inside-out and killed him instantly. To use his expression, the .30 Luger with a softpoint or hollowpoint is "wicked".

Thor · 09-18-2002, 09:04 PM

My 30 slugged out at .312", this was a 1920 DWM with a 3 & 7/8" barrel. I am shocked it was SO BIG, it shot the .308" bullets pretty well. Now I am thinking I can shoot the .312" 71 gr bullets made for the 32 ACP.

G.T. · 09-18-2002, 10:25 PM

Hi Ted! I remember my father saying they used to shoot into a box full of loose wool... said the bullet would be perfect every time.... I never saw it done... but i believe he knew what he was doing! (except when it came to raising me!!) Anyone else ever hear of this wool idea! till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Doubs · 09-19-2002, 11:14 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Thor:
<strong>My 30 slugged out at .312", this was a 1920 DWM with a 3 & 7/8" barrel. I am shocked it was SO BIG, it shot the .308" bullets pretty well. Now I am thinking I can shoot the .312" 71 gr bullets made for the 32 ACP.</strong><hr></blockquote>

In my older Lugers I've often shot .312" bullets weighing from 85 - 90 grains. With Winchester brass, your chamber may accept a cartridge loaded with .312" bullets without a problem. On Remington and Norma brass - as well as reformed 5.56mm cases - I've had to reduce neck thickness to .008" in order to load .312" bullets to fit my chambers.

Thor, you may want to try Hornady's 85 grain XTP HP bullets. It works well in my older Lugers. It has a crimping groove (cannelure) which helps. Try 7.5 - 8.0 grains of AA #7 powder.

Ron Wood · 09-19-2002, 11:38 AM

G.T.
My memory is a bit fuzzy (wooly?) on this but I seem to recall reading an article a long time ago about a police lab firing a round into wool or cotton batting to recover the bullet for examination.

John Sabato · 09-19-2002, 12:16 PM

Years ago the wool or cotton batting type bullet capture box was used by many a forensics lab and I think the FBI lab as well... Some may still be using them today. But I think most now use a water filled barrel with a mesh basket at the bottom to recover slugs that are test fired for a forensics inspection...

unspellable · 09-19-2002, 02:17 PM

Water works for hardball or slow moving solid lead bullets. I've done it myself with a 455 Webley.

If you have anything with serious pretensions to expansion, it will expand in water.

I've captured wax bullets in cotton. Did the ballistic pendulum thing in college physics. Can you imagine packing a revolver on campus in today's climate? (Maybe I'm giving away my age.)

Heinz · 09-19-2002, 07:13 PM

Thor, slugging barrels is pretty easy if you use pue lead, (or 99% or better)and a little oil or teflon spray. Push it through with a wooden dowel of course.

Back in the 1960's when I had my .30 Luger I used to like going to the range and getting the 357 mag shooters with lead bullets to do a penetration wager. The range I used back then had a rig to take 1/2 X 6 X 6 inch pine boards that they had a stack of. The rig held 12 boards and the .30 at the 10 ft shooting distance would do 11 or 12 with factory ammo (winchester and Remington back then). The 357 would not unless it also was jacketed. Wish I had never sold that old Luger.

Heinz · 09-21-2002, 09:44 AM

Serious typo on previous message. The board size was 1/2 inch thick, not 1" 11 to 12 boards 1/2" thick. duh. I am editing that post now.

Thor · 09-21-2002, 10:33 AM

Heinz, I did a penetration test a couple of years ago with a 9mm 124 gr FMJ bullet and it went through 7 &1/2" of wood boards. I loaded some 71 gr FMJ .311" 30 Luger for accuracy in my wife's Luger. I probably will fire it today. These bullets are really made for a 32 acp but with her Luger slugging out at .3115-.312", they should do better than the .308" bullets I was shooting in it before.

Aaron · 09-21-2002, 11:21 AM

Don't know about you cold weather types, but here in southern Kommifornia we just step out to the backyard swimming pool and blast away.

wterrell · 09-21-2002, 11:31 AM

Aaron,

My grandpa taught me how to shoot the ceiling and upper portion of the living room walls. This was usually a wintertime sport and the culmination of post 'Jack Daniels' competitions. Most usually the women did not partake in the pre-game celebrations but faithfully showed up for the post game wrap-up.
My brother-in-law has a variation on this which has been adapted for jack-lighting deer. Seems to display quite the sporting attitude to give the deer 'fair warning' by shooting himself in the foot before leveling the victim in the scope.

Heinz · 09-21-2002, 08:33 PM

Thor, that may turn out to be a very handy barrel size to have ;-)

The 7 1/2 inches of pine penetration does not supris be at all. The box at the range I used ahd a 1" space between the 1/2 inch boards and there was always some drift in the bullet path but most would clear all twelve. The lead .357s tended to drift of to the side of the box before the 8th board. It was great fun to see their faces. I had a S&W 44 mag then also. It just cleared the last 6 of the boards out of there with a lead bullet load. . . but then you had to get the lead out of the bore.

08-10-2002, 05:14 PM	#1
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	.30cal Luger cartridge I was just thinking (yea, it does happen occassionally) as to why Georg Luger had to invent a totally new 30cal cartridge when there was the 7.65 Mauser C96 and the 7.65 Borchardt which were proven rounds. The Borchardt and Mauser may have been identical, I have never seen a Borchardt round. Luger's ammo is the same diameter although it is 6mm shorter than the Mauser at 35mm. One would think that as he was using the Borchardt pistol as a start for the Luger design that he would have used the same ammo. I haven't been able to find anything written on this or else I have forgotten it. Any ideas? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-09-2002, 02:34 PM	#3
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Range test today on my new 30 Luger lead bullets, I wanted to capture one with a squib load for miking to get a correct diameter. I did this with a 44 Magnum with only 1 gr of medium speed powder and it worked like a champ. I had 4 gallon milk jugs in a row and the bullet only went into the first one. Today with only 7/10th of one grain that is 0.7 gr, less than one grain of the same powder figured I didnt need all 4 jugs, was wrong. That little bullet went through all three of the gallon jugs I had out and sailed off into oblivion. Back to the drawing board I guess. More on this when I have my bullet (I hate driving lead slugs down barrels) __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-18-2002, 09:04 PM	#5
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	My 30 slugged out at .312", this was a 1920 DWM with a 3 & 7/8" barrel. I am shocked it was SO BIG, it shot the .308" bullets pretty well. Now I am thinking I can shoot the .312" 71 gr bullets made for the 32 ACP. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-19-2002, 11:38 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	G.T. My memory is a bit fuzzy (wooly?) on this but I seem to recall reading an article a long time ago about a police lab firing a round into wool or cotton batting to recover the bullet for examination. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-19-2002, 12:16 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Years ago the wool or cotton batting type bullet capture box was used by many a forensics lab and I think the FBI lab as well... Some may still be using them today. But I think most now use a water filled barrel with a mesh basket at the bottom to recover slugs that are test fired for a forensics inspection... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-10-2002, 05:56 PM	#2
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	The principal reason Georg shortened the cartridge was to make room for the recoil spring in the grip. The Borchardt recoil spring resides in the rear extension that also contains the roller for unlocking the action. There are no significant differences in diminsions between the Borchardt and Mauser cartridges. The Mauser version was a hotter load, too spiffy for the Borchardt. Actually identifying a Borchardt cartridge today is supposed to involve the details of how the neck is crimped onto the bullet.

09-09-2002, 03:35 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Among the many stories written by Skeeter Skelton was an article about Lugers. One old cowpoke Skeeter met had a .30 Luger and confessed to holding it in high regard. He explained that it was the only pistol he'd ever owned that would shoot through a wagon tongue. Why that was important to him, he didn't explain. With hardball, they will penetrate quite well. With a properly constructed softpoint or hollowpoint, they can be explosive on thin-skinned varmints. Four or five years ago, my father and brother were sitting in lawn chairs under a maple tree in Pop's backyard. It was mid-evening.... a nice time of day in Western Maryland in Summer. One of them noticed a fully grown groundhog coming up the edge of the lawn toward them and it was acting strangely. Fearing that it may have rabies, Pop handed my brother a .30 Luger (the same Erfurt I now have) and told him to kill it. My brother got as close as seemed prudent and put the first shot into him. A FMJ, it passed through without any seeming affect. The second shot was a Hornady 85 grain hollow point of the semi-jacketed type that they sold before the current XTP style. I had loaded a box of them for him. According to my father it nearly turned the groundhog inside-out and killed him instantly. To use his expression, the .30 Luger with a softpoint or hollowpoint is "wicked".

09-18-2002, 10:25 PM	#6
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Hi Ted! I remember my father saying they used to shoot into a box full of loose wool... said the bullet would be perfect every time.... I never saw it done... but i believe he knew what he was doing! (except when it came to raising me!!) Anyone else ever hear of this wool idea! till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

09-19-2002, 11:14 AM	#7
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Thor: <strong>My 30 slugged out at .312", this was a 1920 DWM with a 3 & 7/8" barrel. I am shocked it was SO BIG, it shot the .308" bullets pretty well. Now I am thinking I can shoot the .312" 71 gr bullets made for the 32 ACP.</strong><hr></blockquote> In my older Lugers I've often shot .312" bullets weighing from 85 - 90 grains. With Winchester brass, your chamber may accept a cartridge loaded with .312" bullets without a problem. On Remington and Norma brass - as well as reformed 5.56mm cases - I've had to reduce neck thickness to .008" in order to load .312" bullets to fit my chambers. Thor, you may want to try Hornady's 85 grain XTP HP bullets. It works well in my older Lugers. It has a crimping groove (cannelure) which helps. Try 7.5 - 8.0 grains of AA #7 powder.

09-19-2002, 02:17 PM	#10
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	Water works for hardball or slow moving solid lead bullets. I've done it myself with a 455 Webley. If you have anything with serious pretensions to expansion, it will expand in water. I've captured wax bullets in cotton. Did the ballistic pendulum thing in college physics. Can you imagine packing a revolver on campus in today's climate? (Maybe I'm giving away my age.)

09-19-2002, 07:13 PM	#11
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Thor, slugging barrels is pretty easy if you use pue lead, (or 99% or better)and a little oil or teflon spray. Push it through with a wooden dowel of course. Back in the 1960's when I had my .30 Luger I used to like going to the range and getting the 357 mag shooters with lead bullets to do a penetration wager. The range I used back then had a rig to take 1/2 X 6 X 6 inch pine boards that they had a stack of. The rig held 12 boards and the .30 at the 10 ft shooting distance would do 11 or 12 with factory ammo (winchester and Remington back then). The 357 would not unless it also was jacketed. Wish I had never sold that old Luger.

09-21-2002, 09:44 AM	#12
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Serious typo on previous message. The board size was 1/2 inch thick, not 1" 11 to 12 boards 1/2" thick. duh. I am editing that post now.

09-21-2002, 10:33 AM	#13
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Heinz, I did a penetration test a couple of years ago with a 9mm 124 gr FMJ bullet and it went through 7 &1/2" of wood boards. I loaded some 71 gr FMJ .311" 30 Luger for accuracy in my wife's Luger. I probably will fire it today. These bullets are really made for a 32 acp but with her Luger slugging out at .3115-.312", they should do better than the .308" bullets I was shooting in it before. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-21-2002, 11:21 AM	#14
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Don't know about you cold weather types, but here in southern Kommifornia we just step out to the backyard swimming pool and blast away.

09-21-2002, 11:31 AM	#15
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Aaron, My grandpa taught me how to shoot the ceiling and upper portion of the living room walls. This was usually a wintertime sport and the culmination of post 'Jack Daniels' competitions. Most usually the women did not partake in the pre-game celebrations but faithfully showed up for the post game wrap-up. My brother-in-law has a variation on this which has been adapted for jack-lighting deer. Seems to display quite the sporting attitude to give the deer 'fair warning' by shooting himself in the foot before leveling the victim in the scope. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

09-21-2002, 08:33 PM	#16
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Thor, that may turn out to be a very handy barrel size to have ;-) The 7 1/2 inches of pine penetration does not supris be at all. The box at the range I used ahd a 1" space between the 1/2 inch boards and there was always some drift in the bullet path but most would clear all twelve. The lead .357s tended to drift of to the side of the box before the 8th board. It was great fun to see their faces. I had a S&W 44 mag then also. It just cleared the last 6 of the boards out of there with a lead bullet load. . . but then you had to get the lead out of the bore.