DWM Krieghoff

drbuster · 07-29-2003, 07:23 PM

It is known that DWM sold a number of 1920 commercial P.08's to Krieghoff. Three models, or versions, are said to exist, the most common is dated 1921 over the chamber, horizontal C/N left side of receiver, GERMANY usually stamped on right of receiver. Of course, KRIEGHOFF SUHL with the bad die stamping of one of the "F"s on the back of the frame is a hallmark. My questions

1) is it known how many were processed through Krieghoff (Aarron says about 100),(2) was there a serial range (mine is 6938 "i"--all were supposed in the "i" suffix), and (3) were the clip bottoms wooden (mine is commercial "GERMANY" stamped) or were they stamped with the proper "i" suffixed serial number?

John D. · 07-29-2003, 09:24 PM

Well - DWM/HK Commercials aren't my "thing" - but let me do sort of a "core" dump of what I think I may know about the (broadly categorized) "1920" HK Commercials - and see if it helps.

These are referred to as Commercials, rather then HK reworks (a different subject). Gibson, I believe (I don't have his book at the office) speculates that most - if not all of the "i" block was resold by HK. I also believe he records 40-50 "1921" commercials, so I would think the estimate of "100" by Aarron may be significantly low, as I wouldn't think that Gibson recorded 50% of the total production.? I've seen "estimates" at between 5,000 and 10,000 total, but I can't substiantiate either number. Given that DWM mfg'ed in blocks of 10,000 (well - except for 5 diget "1923" commercials - but let's not quibble. Heh..)- some speculate that the entire "i" block went to HK, as I believe most, if not all verified examples are within the "i" block.

As well - some note that the differences in the C/N proofing designate whether it actually "passed" through the HK factory or not. I'm not certain I subscribe to that theory, as the consistiency in backframe stamps that appear seem to be done by the same ill-sighted employee with a bad die-set/stamping jig (well - I can't account for it otherwise

) See more C/N detail in next paragraph....

Proofs were either traditional DWM C/N (vertical - left side) or horizontal C/N (a smaller HK struck - consistient with HK "P1", "P2" series commercials/presentations) that would appear on both the Left rec. and frame. I also believe that a very few have been reported with LWaA2 marks, but I personally have no first hand experience. Also - I don't think the application of the C/N can form the basis for any conclusive evidence that the "Commercial" was either part of the HK allotment of not - again, given the consistiency of the back-frame die stamps.

Chamber dates can be present or not - as is a mix of calibers 9 and 7.65 (with the requisite barrel length). As well, since these were designated a commercial export - you are correct that "Germany" is properly stamped on the right side - and the mags that I have seen are also stamped "Germany" - rather then the with military style number/diget/suffix.

HTH..!

drbuster · 07-30-2003, 02:36 AM

John D., appreciate your sharing this info with me and the Forum.

Lugerdoc · 07-30-2003, 02:40 PM

Dr.Herb, As I recall, all of these backframe HK marked 20 commerical DWMs were in the 2000i to 8000i range. This is probably not consecutive, as most 1920 Swiss and a few other contracts were also in this "i" block range. Since this was the first letter block of new commericals, after the numeric series topped out at 99,999 or there abouts, I believe that it was reserved for special contract orders, rather than general production. TH

drbuster · 07-30-2003, 04:41 PM

Thanks Tom for this info. Data like this are not found in any of my readings. This is what makes our Forum so valuable.

Big Norm · 07-30-2003, 06:51 PM

I think that this interesting discussion should be moved to the Krieghoff section for future references.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 07-30-2003, 06:57 PM

I agree Norm... but I will leave a copy in the Commercial Luger Forum as a closed topic with a pointer to the new location here...

Pete Ebbink · 08-06-2003, 03:28 AM

Here is a bit of a visual aid (found on the Internet...) to help illustrate the back frame inscription Doc was mentioning...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-29-2003, 07:23 PM	#1
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	DWM Krieghoff It is known that DWM sold a number of 1920 commercial P.08's to Krieghoff. Three models, or versions, are said to exist, the most common is dated 1921 over the chamber, horizontal C/N left side of receiver, GERMANY usually stamped on right of receiver. Of course, KRIEGHOFF SUHL with the bad die stamping of one of the "F"s on the back of the frame is a hallmark. My questions1) is it known how many were processed through Krieghoff (Aarron says about 100),(2) was there a serial range (mine is 6938 "i"--all were supposed in the "i" suffix), and (3) were the clip bottoms wooden (mine is commercial "GERMANY" stamped) or were they stamped with the proper "i" suffixed serial number?

07-30-2003, 02:40 PM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Dr.Herb, As I recall, all of these backframe HK marked 20 commerical DWMs were in the 2000i to 8000i range. This is probably not consecutive, as most 1920 Swiss and a few other contracts were also in this "i" block range. Since this was the first letter block of new commericals, after the numeric series topped out at 99,999 or there abouts, I believe that it was reserved for special contract orders, rather than general production. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-30-2003, 06:57 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I agree Norm... but I will leave a copy in the Commercial Luger Forum as a closed topic with a pointer to the new location here... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-29-2003, 09:24 PM	#2
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Well - DWM/HK Commercials aren't my "thing" - but let me do sort of a "core" dump of what I think I may know about the (broadly categorized) "1920" HK Commercials - and see if it helps. These are referred to as Commercials, rather then HK reworks (a different subject). Gibson, I believe (I don't have his book at the office) speculates that most - if not all of the "i" block was resold by HK. I also believe he records 40-50 "1921" commercials, so I would think the estimate of "100" by Aarron may be significantly low, as I wouldn't think that Gibson recorded 50% of the total production.? I've seen "estimates" at between 5,000 and 10,000 total, but I can't substiantiate either number. Given that DWM mfg'ed in blocks of 10,000 (well - except for 5 diget "1923" commercials - but let's not quibble. Heh..)- some speculate that the entire "i" block went to HK, as I believe most, if not all verified examples are within the "i" block. As well - some note that the differences in the C/N proofing designate whether it actually "passed" through the HK factory or not. I'm not certain I subscribe to that theory, as the consistiency in backframe stamps that appear seem to be done by the same ill-sighted employee with a bad die-set/stamping jig (well - I can't account for it otherwise ) See more C/N detail in next paragraph.... Proofs were either traditional DWM C/N (vertical - left side) or horizontal C/N (a smaller HK struck - consistient with HK "P1", "P2" series commercials/presentations) that would appear on both the Left rec. and frame. I also believe that a very few have been reported with LWaA2 marks, but I personally have no first hand experience. Also - I don't think the application of the C/N can form the basis for any conclusive evidence that the "Commercial" was either part of the HK allotment of not - again, given the consistiency of the back-frame die stamps. Chamber dates can be present or not - as is a mix of calibers 9 and 7.65 (with the requisite barrel length). As well, since these were designated a commercial export - you are correct that "Germany" is properly stamped on the right side - and the mags that I have seen are also stamped "Germany" - rather then the with military style number/diget/suffix. HTH..!

07-30-2003, 02:36 AM	#3
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	John D., appreciate your sharing this info with me and the Forum.

07-30-2003, 04:41 PM	#5
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Thanks Tom for this info. Data like this are not found in any of my readings. This is what makes our Forum so valuable.

07-30-2003, 06:51 PM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I think that this interesting discussion should be moved to the Krieghoff section for future references. Big Norm

08-06-2003, 03:28 AM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is a bit of a visual aid (found on the Internet...) to help illustrate the back frame inscription Doc was mentioning... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />