1914 Erfurt Police

Aaron · 02-02-2003, 10:04 PM

Gentlemen, I have just acquired a new Luger, but am not certain as to exactly what I have. Since I usually collect third reich Lugers, this one is pretty much out of my field of expertise, so I hope I can rely on you to tell me what it is. The pistol is a 1914 Erfurt, serial number 2921a. All parts are matching and Erfurt proofed except for a replacement barrel. The original cut for an artillery sight is present, as is the stock lug. The pistol appears to have its original WWI finish, but the barrel blue is of a different shade than the rest of the pistol. The barrel is stamped on the right side with an intertwined TP over an early type eagle and bears the land diameter of 8,82 on the underside. The pistol is fitted with a sear safety and a magazine safety, both functional. Grips are marked with S/42 and E/63. The firing pin is also matching and has the Erfurt proof, but I was surprised to find it has been grooved in the manner of later Lugers. Apparently the original firing pin was retained but machined to more modern specifications. The magazine is also matching. It is a type two satin plated Haenel Schmeisser mag with aluminum bottom, and is numbered 2921 without the suffix letter, and it also bears the number 1. Obviously this is a police rework which must have been done in 1933 or 1934, judging from the late modifications and the grips. The previous owner called it an “early Nazi police” pistol, and I tend to agree with him. By the way, this pistol retains about 99% of its finish, is about mint inside, 90% straw, and the grips are perfect, showing no wear. There is no grip strap marking. I would like some comments from forum members who can add anything to what I know.

policeluger · 02-03-2003, 04:51 AM

It sounds like a nice Luger and one that should be in my collection, where it would be in good company. As for the barrel a different shade blue, it could have the original rust blue of the WW1 period on the gun, and a salt blued barrel added, not the most common of rework methods, but could be correct. Its just that I have not seen your Luger too give a better guess. TP is of course Tech Police, and an active mag safety is most desirable, as most where deactivated. S/42 is most likely armory replaced grips, and is correct for this period rework, but you may also find the original grip in many cases.
The HS mag without letter suffix is again correct.

Aaron · 02-03-2003, 06:09 AM

So far, so good. Everything you say confirms my belief that this is an early Nazi police Luger. You must be right about the blueing difference, as the gun blue is definitely original rust and the barrel does appear salt blued. There seems to be a number of interesting and scarce characteristics in this Luger, to wit: low production 1914 Erfurt, and functioning mag safety. Anyway, since it isn't in my field of interest, I imagine I will be putting it up for sale one of these days.

policeluger · 02-03-2003, 07:58 AM

Send me a picture if you can, I would like a chance at it, not sure where Vista is, but I live in the high desert out near Death Vally. thanks

Edward Tinker · 02-03-2003, 08:14 AM

Aaron, is it possible to post pictures, Howard knows I am trying to learn about these Police guns, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> and it would be nice to see some pictures with the great text you guys shared!

Ed

MauserLugers · 02-03-2003, 10:43 AM

Hi Aaron,
I have a number of these TP Lugers and I do not think the barrel would be salt blued. Salt blue did not come into use until mid 1937. Is your barrel Simson Eagle 33 proofed? Had an interesting discussion with Garrison the other night and he suggested that these TP barrels were put on at the Police Armory and not reworked by say Simson, as I have always thought. Either could be correct as you do not see any Simson rework markings on the Lugers other than the barrel. He suggested that the barrel was shipped as parts to the police armory and that is why it is not serial numbered to the gun and that they put them on at the armory. Also, in my opinion, the barrel would not be TP marked if it was installed in 1937 or later. If this is a Simson barrel, it should be rust blued but is probably a different shade than the Erfurt bluing. 1937 or later would be the correct time frame for a salt blued barrel, but not the TP markings in my opinion, and if Simson was delivering parts such as barrels to the police armory, I'm sure the barrel would already be blued and not in the white. Without seeing the Luger my guess is that it is a different shade of rust blue. Just a guess. -- Bill

Aaron · 02-03-2003, 08:06 PM

Erfurt police photo as requested:

Aaron · 02-03-2003, 08:12 PM

Photo #2:

Aaron · 02-03-2003, 08:15 PM

Photo #3, Technical Police (TP/E) proof on barrel:

Edward Tinker · 02-03-2003, 08:19 PM

Nice looking gun Aaron

I see you posted as I slowly hen pecked my words

So, I am interested in the markings on the right, my 1914 Police is a DWM, and has a TP barrel also, so Bill's and others comments are very interesting to me and I appreciate you adding the pictures.

Ron Wood · 02-03-2003, 08:20 PM

I don't see the magazine safety???

Edward Tinker · 02-03-2003, 08:27 PM

Ron, I know have two Police Lugers and one has both, the other has a sear safety only. My 1914 DWM has both, while the (made in 1928) Alphabet DWM has just a sear safety. I talked to several collectors, and they said that if it has a mag safety, it will have a sear safety, but not neccessarily the other way around? There are some police Lugers without a sear or mag safety, as three of the Prussian states did not follow the directives till later, so some guns do not have them.

It is possible I misunderstood, but that is the impression I am under at this time.

Ron Wood · 02-03-2003, 08:34 PM

I think your understanding is OK. What I was observing is that in the original post it was stated that this Police Luger had a sear and magazine safety - both functional. In the photo of the left side of the gun, there is no evidence of a mag safety, i.e. no frame cut, no relieved grip and no mag safety.

Edward Tinker · 02-03-2003, 08:53 PM

Sorry, did what I hate doing, I read what you said, without realizing what you said.

Thanks, good question sir <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Aaron · 02-04-2003, 06:13 AM

I am embarassed to admit I am hazy in my knowledge of sear safety and mag safety mechanisms. My understanding is that a sear safety guards against firing when the cannon is removed from the frame. I am also under the impression that a mag safety guards agains firing when the magazine is removed. My Erfurt obviously has a sear safety. It also will not fire with a magazine removed. Does this not mean it also has a mag safety? If so, is it supposed to be visible on external examination? Again, this is not my field of expertise, so please enlighten me.

policeluger · 02-04-2003, 07:20 AM

I also do not see an active mag safert in place, if your gun will not fire with the mag out of the gun, perhaps something else is going on. I want too ask here with respect too your knowledge of Lugers, could the safety be on? is the gun cocking, or do you have a mechanical issue with the gun. You are correct on your understanding of the two safetys and their use, so gun not firing without a mag is a question you need too address. I live in the desert area about 150 north of LA. If you are ever up this way, I would be glad too look at the gun for you. I have had a gun smith business for over 25 years and have always had an interest in Lugers. Thanks.

Edward Tinker · 02-04-2003, 07:51 AM

Aaron, this is my 1914, so you can see where the cut out is for the mag safety and then a close up of the mag safety. Mine appears to be complete, but the trigger pulls when mag out, so either a tiny bit is missing or?

Aaron · 02-04-2003, 10:36 AM

My face is red, as my ignorance is now a matter of public record. I now know there is no mag safety. When I thought the trigger was inoperative with the mag removed, it was because I was pulling on the trigger too gently. It does fire properly with the mag removed. Sorry about misleading everyone. Many thanks for the photos, the information, and for making me just a little bit more knowledgeable.

Edward Tinker · 02-04-2003, 10:45 AM

If we thought you were to be embarrased, then someone might start keeping track of the stupid things I say

and Ron has already corrected me 87 times (must be that many), but he does it so nicely that I have to go, oh I was wrong.

So, something as simple as learning, which I do daily on this forum, is to be expected.

I wouldn't even consider myself embarrassed if I was you, afterall, can you get embarrased around friends? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Ron Wood · 02-04-2003, 11:20 AM

Well stated Edward. Thank you for once again reminding everyone that this is a forum for learning and information exchange. The only inexcuseable ignorance is not asking a question and remaining in ignorance. And I have made my share of goofs on this forum, but darned if I'm going to stop trying. (By the way - it's only 84 times, but who's counting?!

)

02-02-2003, 10:04 PM	#1
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	1914 Erfurt Police Gentlemen, I have just acquired a new Luger, but am not certain as to exactly what I have. Since I usually collect third reich Lugers, this one is pretty much out of my field of expertise, so I hope I can rely on you to tell me what it is. The pistol is a 1914 Erfurt, serial number 2921a. All parts are matching and Erfurt proofed except for a replacement barrel. The original cut for an artillery sight is present, as is the stock lug. The pistol appears to have its original WWI finish, but the barrel blue is of a different shade than the rest of the pistol. The barrel is stamped on the right side with an intertwined TP over an early type eagle and bears the land diameter of 8,82 on the underside. The pistol is fitted with a sear safety and a magazine safety, both functional. Grips are marked with S/42 and E/63. The firing pin is also matching and has the Erfurt proof, but I was surprised to find it has been grooved in the manner of later Lugers. Apparently the original firing pin was retained but machined to more modern specifications. The magazine is also matching. It is a type two satin plated Haenel Schmeisser mag with aluminum bottom, and is numbered 2921 without the suffix letter, and it also bears the number 1. Obviously this is a police rework which must have been done in 1933 or 1934, judging from the late modifications and the grips. The previous owner called it an “early Nazi police” pistol, and I tend to agree with him. By the way, this pistol retains about 99% of its finish, is about mint inside, 90% straw, and the grips are perfect, showing no wear. There is no grip strap marking. I would like some comments from forum members who can add anything to what I know.

02-03-2003, 08:14 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Aaron, is it possible to post pictures, Howard knows I am trying to learn about these Police guns, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> and it would be nice to see some pictures with the great text you guys shared! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-03-2003, 08:19 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Nice looking gun Aaron I see you posted as I slowly hen pecked my words So, I am interested in the markings on the right, my 1914 Police is a DWM, and has a TP barrel also, so Bill's and others comments are very interesting to me and I appreciate you adding the pictures. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-03-2003, 08:20 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I don't see the magazine safety??? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-03-2003, 08:27 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Ron, I know have two Police Lugers and one has both, the other has a sear safety only. My 1914 DWM has both, while the (made in 1928) Alphabet DWM has just a sear safety. I talked to several collectors, and they said that if it has a mag safety, it will have a sear safety, but not neccessarily the other way around? There are some police Lugers without a sear or mag safety, as three of the Prussian states did not follow the directives till later, so some guns do not have them. It is possible I misunderstood, but that is the impression I am under at this time. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-03-2003, 04:51 AM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	It sounds like a nice Luger and one that should be in my collection, where it would be in good company. As for the barrel a different shade blue, it could have the original rust blue of the WW1 period on the gun, and a salt blued barrel added, not the most common of rework methods, but could be correct. Its just that I have not seen your Luger too give a better guess. TP is of course Tech Police, and an active mag safety is most desirable, as most where deactivated. S/42 is most likely armory replaced grips, and is correct for this period rework, but you may also find the original grip in many cases. The HS mag without letter suffix is again correct.

02-03-2003, 06:09 AM	#3
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	So far, so good. Everything you say confirms my belief that this is an early Nazi police Luger. You must be right about the blueing difference, as the gun blue is definitely original rust and the barrel does appear salt blued. There seems to be a number of interesting and scarce characteristics in this Luger, to wit: low production 1914 Erfurt, and functioning mag safety. Anyway, since it isn't in my field of interest, I imagine I will be putting it up for sale one of these days.

02-03-2003, 07:58 AM	#4
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Send me a picture if you can, I would like a chance at it, not sure where Vista is, but I live in the high desert out near Death Vally. thanks

02-03-2003, 10:43 AM	#6
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Aaron, I have a number of these TP Lugers and I do not think the barrel would be salt blued. Salt blue did not come into use until mid 1937. Is your barrel Simson Eagle 33 proofed? Had an interesting discussion with Garrison the other night and he suggested that these TP barrels were put on at the Police Armory and not reworked by say Simson, as I have always thought. Either could be correct as you do not see any Simson rework markings on the Lugers other than the barrel. He suggested that the barrel was shipped as parts to the police armory and that is why it is not serial numbered to the gun and that they put them on at the armory. Also, in my opinion, the barrel would not be TP marked if it was installed in 1937 or later. If this is a Simson barrel, it should be rust blued but is probably a different shade than the Erfurt bluing. 1937 or later would be the correct time frame for a salt blued barrel, but not the TP markings in my opinion, and if Simson was delivering parts such as barrels to the police armory, I'm sure the barrel would already be blued and not in the white. Without seeing the Luger my guess is that it is a different shade of rust blue. Just a guess. -- Bill

02-03-2003, 08:06 PM	#7
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Erfurt police photo as requested:

02-03-2003, 08:12 PM	#8
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Photo #2:

02-03-2003, 08:15 PM	#9
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Photo #3, Technical Police (TP/E) proof on barrel:

02-03-2003, 08:34 PM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I think your understanding is OK. What I was observing is that in the original post it was stated that this Police Luger had a sear and magazine safety - both functional. In the photo of the left side of the gun, there is no evidence of a mag safety, i.e. no frame cut, no relieved grip and no mag safety. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-03-2003, 08:53 PM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Sorry, did what I hate doing, I read what you said, without realizing what you said. Thanks, good question sir <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-04-2003, 06:13 AM	#15
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	I am embarassed to admit I am hazy in my knowledge of sear safety and mag safety mechanisms. My understanding is that a sear safety guards against firing when the cannon is removed from the frame. I am also under the impression that a mag safety guards agains firing when the magazine is removed. My Erfurt obviously has a sear safety. It also will not fire with a magazine removed. Does this not mean it also has a mag safety? If so, is it supposed to be visible on external examination? Again, this is not my field of expertise, so please enlighten me.

02-04-2003, 07:20 AM	#16
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I also do not see an active mag safert in place, if your gun will not fire with the mag out of the gun, perhaps something else is going on. I want too ask here with respect too your knowledge of Lugers, could the safety be on? is the gun cocking, or do you have a mechanical issue with the gun. You are correct on your understanding of the two safetys and their use, so gun not firing without a mag is a question you need too address. I live in the desert area about 150 north of LA. If you are ever up this way, I would be glad too look at the gun for you. I have had a gun smith business for over 25 years and have always had an interest in Lugers. Thanks.

02-04-2003, 07:51 AM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Aaron, this is my 1914, so you can see where the cut out is for the mag safety and then a close up of the mag safety. Mine appears to be complete, but the trigger pulls when mag out, so either a tiny bit is missing or? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-04-2003, 10:36 AM	#18
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	My face is red, as my ignorance is now a matter of public record. I now know there is no mag safety. When I thought the trigger was inoperative with the mag removed, it was because I was pulling on the trigger too gently. It does fire properly with the mag removed. Sorry about misleading everyone. Many thanks for the photos, the information, and for making me just a little bit more knowledgeable.

02-04-2003, 10:45 AM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	If we thought you were to be embarrased, then someone might start keeping track of the stupid things I say and Ron has already corrected me 87 times (must be that many), but he does it so nicely that I have to go, oh I was wrong. So, something as simple as learning, which I do daily on this forum, is to be expected. I wouldn't even consider myself embarrassed if I was you, afterall, can you get embarrased around friends? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-04-2003, 11:20 AM	#20
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Well stated Edward. Thank you for once again reminding everyone that this is a forum for learning and information exchange. The only inexcuseable ignorance is not asking a question and remaining in ignorance. And I have made my share of goofs on this forum, but darned if I'm going to stop trying. (By the way - it's only 84 times, but who's counting?! ) __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction