Favored gun?

[Roadkill]

This is meant to be historical specific so if the answers come out differently than that I'll request the forum police terminate it. Did the Waffen SS, Einsatztruppen (occupying troops), Sicherheitsdienst (SD), Sonderabteilungen (special units) or the GP (Geheimpolezi) have a favored gun for their use? These were the real bad guys. Over the years I've read that they favored the "black widow", BHP, Radom, Mod 34, HSC, and even the PP/PPK for their criminal actions. Is there any real proof that one was used any more frequently than the others or is it all simply retold bull?

rk

[ToggleTop]

RK,
There is an old poem, I think it goes like this, "This is my rifle, this is my gun, this is for shooting, this is for fun". Or something like that! Are you talking about a gun?
As my Grand Daughter tells me, I don't know, but is an interesting question.
Hope this is not to much of a goof off, but I feel good.

[Frank]

Hey Roadkill!! I don't know the answer either.

But, I have seen many photos of German Troops and for the most part, regular Army had Lugers, Waffen SS had non-Lugers. While it is difficult to identify the exact pistol, they look similar to 1911 Colt .45 Cal. My guess, in many instances, are either 1935 Model Browning or Radom Pistols.

The smaller pistols, like the 7.65 or 9 Kurz, are really had to identify, in most cases.

[John -Melb]

It's my understanding that the Waffen SS were front line troops and would have probably been issued the same as the army, I remember reading simewhere that the did favour Browning HP's and Radoms if Lugers and P38 were unavailable. This makes a good deal of sense from a logistical standpoint. Einsatztruppen (occupying troops), Sicherheitsdienst (SD), Sonderabteilungen (special units) or the GP (Geheimpolezi)were all basically lines of communication troops, they would have been issued what ever was available, very likely they had a large percentage of Fremdenpistole (I think that's the spelling) taken from other nations following German. conquest. Just my thoughts.

[Frank]

Hey Roadkill, after my last post, I was looking at the grips of one of my G-Dates and found very faint lettering on the inside of the left grip.

HANS OBERGAST
OBER LEUT. S.S.T.
70789, or
20789, or
Z0789

Now, maybe someone is messing with me or it could be a 1st Lieutenant Obergast of the SS Totenkopf Division!!

Anybody have any guesses????

[fg42]

I think the Waffen SS had more Browning And Radoms Because The Waffen SS was expanded greatly in the mid war time period When Luger and P38 production couldn't keep up with The Demand. The SD & GP being police organizations formed long before the war started would have been armed manly with Walthers & Saurs Thanks Bob

[Roadkill]

Frank, don't know, but in the feeble recesses of my daily fading memory every time I've seen German reference to the Totenkopf it was listed as "TK or "Tk". Also seems more likely that for an identification of an item it would list a more specific unit designation instead of something like an entire division. My guess is that its either part of his name as a title or maybe a job designator.

Ref the police units, every picture I've seen of the real bad guys actually using their guns they were either PPs, Sauer 38s, Brownings, or CZs, never a clear view of a P38 or Luger.

rk

[Frank]

Roadkill, I agree with the TK designation, I too noticed that. Also, the letters are separated with "periods" and that also is unusual for the SS designation. I think the officer designation for the SS Troops were different from the Heer Troops.

My conclusion would be, that if it is real, the S.S.T. must mean something else.

[Lugerdoc]

Frank, That one must have been delivered to the current owner on an SST (Supersonic Transport). TH

[Heydrich]

Tac, you must have been having a bad day or something, but wasn’t the Heer (OKH) technically the designation for the German Army in WW2 and the Wehrmacht (OKW) the combined German military? I noticed that after the 1997 publication of Pimlott’s book, Wehrmacht "The Illustrated History of the German Army" there has been a little more ambiguity here. That dude should have known better.

I got out my copy of Charles Sydnor’s book Soldiers of Destruction after reading this thread. According to him, that division went by SSTV, then SSTK later on. But RK is right, looks like generally speaking the TK acronym is used. The real question is if members of that unit back then used it.

Interesting book by Sydnor. He includes some photos of notable TK members back then. God some of them are scary looking dudes. He has a long-winded conclusion in it that emphatically states that the 3rd SS Panzer (and derivatives) was involved in immoral activities, and at least indirectly with the shady dealings of the concentration camp system. I needed to read this book to figure that out?

[Roadkill]

This is going off on another track, but the relationship of the Waffen SS and KZ system is one which becomes rather foggy the closer you look. The KZs were under the SS side of the military house, not the Wehrmacht. The duty assignments there were sometimes used as recovery periods or as light duty for Waffen SS soldiers wounded or recuperating otherwise. That fits with the SS type weapons which were procured out of the standard Wehrmacht system being seen in the infamous execution photos.

rk

[Heinz]

My understanding is the SS were political troops under Himmler. They were not favored by the Wehrmach and an interesing overview of some of this friction is given in "Berlin: the Downfall 1945" by Anthony Beevor. It is a must read for WWII fans. Beevor indicates many SS regiments were foreign troops who espoused the Nazi philosophy and when the Allies were winning, had nowhere to run to. The SS Nordlund was Swedish, SS Nederland was Dutch, and SS Charlemagne French. He illustrates the regulars feelings toward the SS in a quote from a young Luftwaffe flak helper who asked a companion on May 2 when they were spending their last free night in the Shultheiss brewery why he was hearing gunfire, the response "Come around back, the SS are shooting themselves, you have got to see this."

This does not seem to explain the SS tank Battalions which seem to have been well led and well equiped. But it does explain the large number of out of the mainstream weapons issued by the army to the SS.

[Heydrich]

RK:

On p.52-53 of the book D-Day, it has a photo of 18 different models of captured German pistols from the Normandy area. Obviously, they used a very wide variety of handguns from various sources. Here are the ones listed: Astra 600, French Unique 7.65, Radom Model 1935, two Belgian FN variants, Czech CZ-27, Hungarian Femaru, two P38 variants, two P.08 variants, Walther PP, Walther Model 8, Walther Model 4, Walther PPK, Mauser 1906, Mauser HS, and Mauser 1896.

However, there was definitely a “favored gun” for the Hollywood movie SS personnel: a Luger.

And nothing is foggy about the relationship between the TK and the KZ. The TK was founded by mainly camp guards, lead by Eicke (regulations created by him while at Dachau became standard), and received some resources via that system. That’s economic, political, and military links.

I guess that makes the whole argument by former Waffen-SS troops that they were, "just combat troops" like the others BS, especially for the TK.

[John -Melb]

Heydrich my friend, I was not trying to say that Waffen-SS were "just combat troops", I said they were front line troops. This is not to say they weren't just as guilty of acts of bastardry as any other, the actions of Peiper's men at Malmedy proved that. It is my belief that they generally carried 9mm sidearms. Lugers or P38's when available, Radoms and Browning HP's when not as did other front line troops.
As for the others mentioned by RK (Einsatztruppen (occupying troops), Sicherheitsdienst (SD), Sonderabteilungen (special units) or the GP (Geheimpolezi)) they were lines of communication troops and I do not believe they saw widespread issue of 9mm sidearms. Your quote from the D-Day book appears to illustrate this.
Many of the German troops encounted early in the Normandy Campaign would have been lines of communication or garrison troops. 18 types of pistols taken, 4 Wermacht standard issue (P08 & P38) 7 "Fremdenpisole" and 7 types of pre-war commercial handgun.
Makes for an interesting discussion though doesn't it!

Regards to all.

[Roadkill]

I think I just about figured this all out. I'll use a Radom as an example but any of the waffenpted guns will work. If you have a Radom with waffenamts then what you really have is a Radom with a waffenamts. Same goes for all the others. No way to figure out the Paul Harvey on them.

rk

[MarkC]

Getting back to the original question,

"Did the Waffen SS, Einsatztruppen (occupying troops), Sicherheitsdienst (SD), Sonderabteilungen (special units) or the GP (Geheimpolezi) have a favored gun for their use?"

I think officers preferred .32 pistols because I have seen them in photo's on their belts. Field troops accepted what was given to them by the supply side. I would think combat troops wanted 9mm because of the "punch" and what was available do to supply and location. Don't think they cared much except for function. Most likely the Luger was given to the guys who were there first but the technology of firearms developement dictated that the new guys wanted the most modern weapons, sorry to say but lugers were outdated. (Everyone likes technology!) The Sauer 38h and P38 must have been in high demand. I think the younger guys wanted a P38, it was a much better weapon although not as nice looking.

Just my 2c

Mark

[Heydrich]

Is that a P.08 holster the SD goon on the far left has?



Kind of looks like two of these holsters:



The smug-looking guy with the briefcase has a Luger holster for sure. Wonder what he’s got in the briefcase.

Source website:
http://home.online.no/~vestil/norway/index.htm

[Ron Wood]

His lunch.

[John Sabato]

Heydrich's first photo...



The guy on the far left is carrying the standard P-38 quickdraw type holster... even though at this magnification the picture is very fuzzy resolution, you can see through the open end of the flap the P-38 clip release and the flat mag base on the bottom of the grip...