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Unread 09-19-2004, 10:52 PM   #1
kidvett
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Unhappy Early S Code

Hello all,

Presenting my only KH.........( there are not that many of those here up North !! ) A well used ( & abused ?? ) pistol showing heavy pitts......

SN 717, Early toggle markings, coarse checkered wood grips......



Interesting features are the strawed recoil lever...



....and ``worst finish`` I've seen on a mainspring guide !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />



.....yes it's the guide from this pistol, E/2 Proofs...



Lastly, the ``no witness mark`` common to KH pistols. Bore is 8.84 Most of my other P08s are tighter....



Other oddities found: strawed H.O with white top, Strawed extractor with blued top.....What happened when KH started production......

Shown for information purposes only as I know she wont win a beauty contest........ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

MARK
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Unread 09-20-2004, 12:06 AM   #2
Edward Tinker
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Yes, but its a Krieg! So congrats!!

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

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Unread 09-20-2004, 02:47 PM   #3
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Hey Mark..!!!!

OUSTANDING!!! I notice on yours, that you have the earliest version of the die type for "GESICHERT"... Very sweet!

As well is do the inside of the grips have the last two digets stamped, or are they un-numbered?

If you are interested, I'll take my Early S apart tonite and take a look mainspring guide - but, as I recall - it also is roughly machined? My guess is that they cared more about function then "stunning looks" back then.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

As for not winning any beauty contests - I beg to differ.. It's outstanding!!!

Thanks for posting this excellent review!!!

John D.
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Unread 09-20-2004, 08:33 PM   #4
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Hi Mark,

OK - below is my HK Early S. It is a matched mag, and may rate at 96+ blue/65% straw (I grade tough, and sorry for the incandesent light reflection, but - this is an older photo).... It's a nice piece, but later then yours in serialization.

By comparision, the recoil lever in mine is blue and the hold open is not strawed. As yours, it also has the rather classic HK wood grips, which I really like. As well, my mainspring giude DOES have rough machine marks, as yours..... I'll take a look in my notes, but I believe HK serial number "41X" (sorry, it's not mine any longer, so I won't publish serial numbers of other's HKs) but, as I recall - it also had a strawed recoil lever? I'll check....

Anyway - here's mine - and I'll try to post some more pics when I have a chance to get the camera out do a quick write-up....

Again - my thanks for a great presentation of a fine Early S HK!!!

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Unread 09-20-2004, 08:59 PM   #5
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John D.:
<strong>Hi Mark,OK - below is my HK Early S. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Yup, a real dog <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

John, these kriegs you have are awfully nice! Does the wife REALLY know?



ed
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Unread 09-20-2004, 09:18 PM   #6
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John D.:
<strong>Hi Mark,OK - below is my HK Early S. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">......Does the wife REALLY know?



ed</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Ummmmm - fortunately - they all look like the same Looger to her.. She sees the anchor thingy, and says something like "Oh - you have that one out AGAIN???".. If she ever reads this Forum, I might be in trouble

JD
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Unread 09-20-2004, 09:30 PM   #7
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OK - here's another taken with my Brownie camera <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I sort'a liked this as it shows the flats of the grip panel, which Mark's early HK has as well... I call them "fat grips", as they are different then other manufacturers'....

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Unread 09-20-2004, 09:31 PM   #8
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Hello & thanks for the kind comments......

John,
Grips are the early coarse wood type and are NOT numbered. Actually only the left panel is right as the other one is mis-matched ( anyone has one FS ?? )



Numbered & Proofed parts are: Trigger, Locking Bolt, Breechblock, Toggle link & Rear toggle, sideplate.

All other parts are Proofed & Un-Numbered except: trigger lever ( which is I believe a replacement ), Coupling Link and Axle pin.

Yours is a real beauty !! & I wish I could find one in that condition !! Still, I'm happy to at least have one and find it an interesting piece.....

Any explanation for those ``roughly machined parts``

MARK

Oh, almost forgot....no the mag does not match...
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Unread 09-20-2004, 10:00 PM   #9
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Hey Mark..!!!!

Actually - either numbered or un-numbered is correct... The Early S series are rather rare, and I've seen a number of them that follow Gibson - and a few that do not insofar as numbering styles/placement and small parts (where the LWaA 2 is placed, for example). These pieces are also correct....

As for replacement grips - that's going to be a tough one, as most of the wood panel grips are original to Mauser, DWM and others. As you know - HK panels are different, but - don't give up hope, as once in a while, I stumble across some strange HK findings.

Also - regardless, the trigger lever should have an LWaA2 proof - typically "upside down", inside face towards the bottom. HOWEVER, a few were stamped against the plate, so you'd have to remove the lever pin to be certain....??

As for the roughly machined parts... I don't have an explanation..??? Later years, they seemed to have given them a quick final polish, which is smoother on the flats. But - through "36" and Post War, the rough machine marks that your's has is not uncommon.

Honestly? I really like your HK... Many HKs on the market today have been "dressed up" to command a better price. Your's is the way they were - and it reminds me of many of the first that I began with years ago. Since then, I only "upgrade" when I can find a better ("correct/unmolested") piece from the same variation, but please remember - I've been doing the HK thing for over 15+ years.... However, some dealers are asking "stupid" prices for boosted pieces, so buyer beware.

For that - I'd latch onto your's in a nano-second. It's a terrific example of a very scarce Early S. And for that - I really appreciate it..!!!!

Best to you!

John
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Unread 09-20-2004, 11:09 PM   #10
Dwight Gruber
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Mark,

Thanks for the witness mark note.

--Dwight
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Unread 09-21-2004, 10:41 AM   #11
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Hi Mark,

The main spring guide looks like it has been welded together. Probably a repaired broken lever?
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Unread 09-21-2004, 02:38 PM   #12
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Gerben, I felt the same way when I saw the photo, but was too busy to comment. It also looks to me that the main spring guide was welded back together...
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Unread 09-21-2004, 02:58 PM   #13
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Ok John, I have a request for you. Like you are not busy enough as it is.
You said,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> I notice on yours, that you have the earliest version of the die type for "GESICHERT"... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I was hoping you might be able to give us some examples of the different die types.

Is this a reasonable request? Thanks.

Sid.
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Unread 09-21-2004, 06:15 PM   #14
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Hi folks,

I don't think it has been welded, but Mark will be able to tell for sure....???

Also Sid,

You bet..! There were two primary GESICHERT Die types used. The early (used on G and many "S" variations) appears with smaller letters - AND more importantly, the "G" has a serif appearance on the lower edge and is characterized with a rounder body. As I recall - Gibson's book really doesn't show it too well, especially the serif (I always wondered if the correct photo was printed for that caption?). Anyway - I'll try to take some close-up pics and post them if you are interested, as well as look in Gibson's book later tonite for the page/photo for you...

Best to you!

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Unread 09-22-2004, 03:07 PM   #15
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Hi John,
That would be great. I am looking forward to seeing them. I have been curious as to how much of a change the fonts went through over the years. I do seem to recall that the height had changed on some version that I have seen.

Amazing what this passion for the Luger has done to me. Now I am studying the differences in font sizes. I think my wife might be right. She says I am a bit crazy. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

Thanks.

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Unread 09-22-2004, 07:48 PM   #16
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Strider:
<strong>......Amazing what this passion for the Luger has done to me. Now I am studying the differences in font sizes. I think my wife might be right. She says I am a bit crazy. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> .....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Sid..!

I think we are OK - as long as your wife doesn't meet my wife.... <img border="0" alt="[blabla]" title="" src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" /> My wife KNOWS I'm crazy - and I don't need her to convice your wife that you are as well..!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Anyway - I'd be pleased to take close-ups of the differences and put them in another thread. However, it may be a day or so - since if I take pics while the wife is home (which she is now), I'd haft'a explain what I'm doing - and remember - I have her convinced I only have one Luger... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Best to you!

John D.
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Unread 09-22-2004, 09:53 PM   #17
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John D.:
<strong>[QUOTE]...Anyway - I'd be pleased to take close-ups of the differences and put them......</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Actually.... What I'll do, if you like, is show a transition HK between the early and mid series "S".

You see, Mr. Gibson, as terrific as his work was and certainly is today, makes some definate distinctions between "Early" and Mid "S" series HKs - what to look for and what is "correct".

Unfortunately, the transition was not as clean in actual "production", given how HK manufactured Lugers and serialized the parts. Their process of serialization and manufacturing left some HKs being issued that "fall between the lines" of Mr. Gibson's excellent work and his designations of what would be correct between "Early" and "Mid" series "S" codes.

So - if you are interested, I'll do a write-up and photo analysis of that transition period for HK, using some HKs from my collection as examples.

Best to you,

John D.
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Unread 09-23-2004, 03:36 PM   #18
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Hi John,
Anything you can produce would be great. I am looking forward to seeing what you can show us. And don't feel like you have to rush to get this. I know you are busy and sometimes it is hard to free up some time.

Now, as for the "one" Luger explanation that you might consider. I think that a photo expos√?¬© on various "lighting" or "angles" of the Luger might work as the reason for so many pictures.

I do not think that you have to worry about having your wife convince my wife that I am crazy. My daughter already thinks so and is now giving me those side long glances at just about anything I do now and yelling out to mom, "He's doing it again". She is of the opinion that her dad is just a little bit touched. I have to run with it though and keep her guessing until she finally figures me out. To bad the wife has already figured me out. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> Almost.

Talk to you later.

Sid.
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Unread 09-23-2004, 11:11 PM   #19
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Hello,

On the spring guide from memory: I did not recall ``obvious`` signs of welding even if it looks like it......Just filling marks ( ?? ) in the middle section with a ``whitening`` of the otherwise color casehardened finish........

I find it quite dissapointing to find such ``poorly finished`` parts on a KH . But if we look at a 1918 dated Erfurt we also see ``poorly finished`` parts & machining. Late War is an explanation in itself.....But early production start in this case....... And if I'm not mistaked, during the P08s production: Erfurt became Simson which later became Krieghoff......

Perhaps a photo comparison of the 3 would show similarities......

John,

Do you want me to send you close up photos of that GESICHERT markings for your documentation.....

MARK
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