Interesting finds after shooting my 1900 AE

[skeeter4206]

I went shooting today and I noticed the toggle mechanism on my 1900 AE - 30 cal. was acting funny. The toggle was not completely coming all the way down after each firing of the gun. It would shoot fine, extract the spent shell fine. But after that every so often the toggle would not come completey down. I would have to push it down with my hand. I thought at first not enough lubrication, so I stripped it at the gun range and added plenty of lub (Hoppes gun grease). Thick grease almost like lithium grease along the rails for the sliding portion of the toggle and frame.

All being said that helped a little, but every so often I would still have to push the toogle back down all the way to fire again.

After getting home I did some looking at the gun and spent shells. I noticed the spent shells on the back side where the firing pin hits the shell, had different depths of indentions on the primer.





As looking at the upper frame where it rides in the groove on the main body, I noticed some unusual wear on the frame.




So Anyone got any comments on this issue with the toggle. I also did some further inspection on the entire gun. See next thread.

[skeeter4206]

When I got home I completely stripped the gun down for cleaning and a good looking at. Well I do NDE for a living so... I went and got some fluorescent magnetic particle equipment from my shop and brought home to do a more thorough inspection on the entire gun.

Well, in doing this I found to areas on interest that will more than likely make me not wanna shot the gun again.

The 1st area was around the loading chamber on the upper frame. This was on the bottom sde of the frame at the point where the thin rails tie in to the round portion for where the barrel screws in. These indications are in a corner and run in the corners and out into the round portion <1/16" on one side. See Pics.





The next and probably more detrimental to the gun was found on the rear toggle. The cut out corners on the toggle where it sits down into the main frame when completely closed, I found some cracking inthe corners and on the left side of the toggle the indication ran onto the top of the toggle approximately 0.08". This particular indication makes me NOT wanna shoot it anymore as this portion of the gun appears to take alot of stress through its operation.






So... This is my new issue with gun that I truly love shooting. So now I dont really know what to do. Do I just keep it all together as is, as this gun is the 1900 american eagle. Or do I try and replace parts. The frame indication may not be a real issue, or is it? Please comment on this. The toggle I know not to shoot the gun anymore with that indication in it, or do I?

PLease give me yalls thoughts and opinions on what I should do with this relic. I probably just need to invest in a good shooter luger to keep with the enjoyment of shooting these guns. Definitely a 9mm version as these 30 cal bullets are quite expensive to shoot.

Thanks for any feedback yall give me, as I do take yalls suggestions and comments to the heart.

Glenn Barnes
Skeeter

[CJS57]

Great info for everyone! I agree, get a shooter that doesn't matter if it breaks.

[skeeter4206]

Yeah Im actually glad I went through and did a magnetic particle examination on the parts. Cause them indications on the toggle and frame I never would have seen with my eyes only. The bigger one on the toggle once I knew it was there could faintly see it.

Overall this is a good lesson of you cant always see things that can cause trouble on your guns. It never hurts to look if you have the capability to do so.

[Edward Tinker]

my first thought would have been a dirty firing pin / firing pin channel...

Although old guns are fun to shoot, this shows two things;

1. These are well over 100 yr old guns
2. These guns were replaced by the 'newer' 1906 and then 1908 'style' for a reason...


Ed

[skeeter4206]

hey whats going on Ed. My firing pin and firing pin channel are clean. I always keep that portion of the gun as clean as I can. Although saying that I do oil the spring and channel on the toggle. Is this a wise decision or not.

I was messing with my gun after I did the magnetic particle inspection on it. Looking at the forks the rear of the forks look a little pigeon toed at the end. I put some dial calipers on the frame and measured the distance between each fork. There was about 0.100" difference between that rear and the area around the chanmber. Also with no firing pin or spring in the toggle I put the whole upper back together. And there is just some binding or something towards the front of the forks. It starts having friction about a 1/4" from complete closure. Its almost as if that last little bit is a smaller dimension than the breech block at that point. Maybe the reason there is cracking at the ends of the fork tying into the barrel extension.

I read a thread on the webpage earlier that someone was having the same issues. He ended up changing the main spring out and that was his last input on that thread.

Mine however isnt the spring, its the leaf spring type. So I dont know what to think of that solving my problem on my luger.

As for the gun being a 100 years, I was worried about damaging it badly. But, the gun has parts that have been changed out (the barrel and a rear sight added). So some members have commented that this lower the value of the luger, so I figured lets shoot it then. But now I dont know if Ill shoot it any more unless I get a different rear toggle. Thats an option.

Thanks for the reply
Skeeter

[Ron Wood]

Your gun with its unique peep sight indicates that it was formerly owned by someone that liked to shoot. There is no telling how many rounds have been through the gun. It is probable that it is experiencing some metal fatigue. I suspect that it could endure considerable more shooting, but at some point spontaneous disassembly is going to happen (its gonna break). I think I would enjoy it as a neat example of a unique American Eagle and get another shooter Luger to satisfy your urge to burn lots of powder. It probably won't hurt to take the old fellow out once a year, like on your birthday to celebrate, run a magazine full thorugh it, clean it and put it away until next year.
Thank you for your most interesting posts and sharing your snazzy AE with us.
Ron

[Terry Tiell]

My first thought was the main spring but after seeing those cracks IDK.

If you really want to keep shooting this gun I'd replace those raked parts with good ones and save the original parts.

OR buy a shooter and retire this one to a display case.

[mrerick]

Glenn,

"NDE" is "non destructive evaulation", right?

Is this the kind of portable equipment you're using:

http://www.magnaflux.com/Products/Ma...ectionKit.aspx

That dye really gets into imperfections, doesn't it!

Marc

[skeeter4206]

Marc you are correct on how I went about getting these pics. This method of using magnetism to show cracking in a carbon steel part is very sensitive. I use this method in pressure vessels and storage tanks in chemical plants, paper mills and refinerys around the SE portion of the United States. It is quick and very good at showing areas of metal fatigue that you can not see with your naked eye. I attached a photo of what I used.









There is also a cheaper way of doing this as well and can be done on stainless steel as well as carbon steel. Its liquid dye penetrant examination. You spray on a red dye and let it sit for a bit and wash the dye off and then spray a white developer on the part after its dry. If there is a crack or pin hole or something open to the surface the dye will pull out of the crack and you will be able to see it.

Just food for thought on those out there that wanna inspect there own luger parts quick and easy.

Thanks for all yalls responses back.

Well I guess a new luger will be in the makings soon, real soon.

Skeeter

[skeeter4206]

Rick I am also curious when you say my leaf spring may be weak. How do I go about determining if this is the case. Also you mentioned putting a piece of tape on the frame. Where would I do this at if I were to do so. I have noticed a little wiggle between the from toggle and the middle toggle at the pin joint. Im sure there is some battering occuring when firing this gun.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Glenn..VERY cool technology !! Thanks for showing it..I would suspect that most shooter Lugers might show some cracking here and there. It would be interesting to send you a heavy shooter and do a comparison test.

[skeeter4206]

That would be interesting to do. It be cool to find one that has failed and broke and inspect it this way and see how much more cracking is found that they could not see.

This method is not new technolgy and Im surprised they aint someone out there already doing this as they rebuilt some of these relics. They have been doing this on engine block heads looking for cracking.

Im glad I can show something new to ones that havent seen this before. The pics dont do it justice. Seeing it done in person up close, the cracks REALLY show. Its a very cool inspection method.

[skeeter4206]

Heres a couple of good pictures of liquid dye penetrant examination to give you an idea of what else is out there. This method is cheap and can buy the supplies at any welding supply store I would imagine





If anyone wants to know exactly what to ask for, Id more than happy to help them out.

Skeeter

[regul]

Skeeter4206
I enjoyed looking at your photos of the WFMT examination you did on your AE 1900. Great information. I am our companys ASNT Level III for RT, MT, PT, LT and VT.
Thanks
Ed

[lugerholsterrepair]

Rick..If your analysis of the multifunction of the recoil spring holds true..then a weak recoil spring would tend to do just what seems to be happening to Glenn's 1900..The inability of the pistol to return to battery and getting slapped hard enough to crack everything in sight?

[Karl]

Glen,
I don't pretend to be an expert gunsmith but I do shoot a 1900 AE. I cannot account for the inconsistant firing pin strikes if you have a clean gun. The wear marks on the receiver rails suggest to me that the receiver may have been damaged as a result of an attempt to remove the barrel. The drag you experience could be anything but I can relate a personal experience: I had a similar problem with drag and the toggle not fully returning to battery. The problem was the leaf spring (a replacement - probably an ancient aftermarket part). the "ears" on the top of the spring where it engages the link on the toggle were rubbing against the bottom of the breach block. Some carefull fitting solved the problem. You might try putting a piece of scotch tape on the bottom of the breech block and cycling the action - scars on the tape will tell the story. On another note - I notice that you are using commercial ammo. I suggest that you reload and work up to the minimum load that functions. Best of luck.
KFS

[skeeter4206]

As for the area yall are talking about to put the tape. I can visually see where the toggle has been hitting the frame as the metal is white and not blue anymore for a little portion of it.

As for the leaf springs, last night when I completely disassembled the gun, I took the grips off and looked at them. There are two springs in mine. I took a screwdriver and manually made the spring move backwards as I was curious if it was damaged. I didnt see anything visually. The WFMT was kinda limited in this area trying to see any indications. But saying that, the spring was kinda easy to make move backwards. I mean it still has good tension, but not what I would expect it to be.

All in all after hearing yall discuss the toggle action, I am convinced that the toggle is out of whack. Looks to be it has some play between toogle sections at the pin connections. Im just gonna keep it around as a conversation piece and get me a good shooter. I already talked to my local gunsmith and he knows someone who has one for $400. So Ill check it out and maybe, hell hopefully get to shoot it before I buy it.

Ed - level III
Thats interesting finding someone on here that does what I do for a living. As for me I am level II MT, PT, UT, VT and also have my API 653, API 510 and API QUTE shearwave cert for american petroleum institute. That was a hard practical let me tell you.

But seeing that your in virginia I curious who you work for. I was working for Longview Inspection/Acuren until last summer and now I work for Applied Technical Services.

Anywho... Thanks again for all yalls feedback. Hopefully my next luger will be a good enough shooter gun that I just enjoy.

Thanks
Skeeter

[skeeter4206]

Karl,
Yeah I have been using the fiocchi brand ammo, as that is the only kind I can find locally. And at $35 for a box of 50 I would rather have some reload.

I am going to try the scotch tape idea and see what happens. Im curious about that. But your idea about the barrel b eing changed, your dead on with that. My barrel has been changed out sometime in the past as it hasa no SN on the barrel.

Ill get back with you in a minute about the scotch tape deal...

And to the bat cave I go...

[skeeter4206]

Well as I am kinda still a newby and am assuming the breach block is the section of the toggle that holds the firing pin. I put tape on the bottom side of this section and when thru themotions 3 times and I did not see any marks on the tape.