1917 Marked Artillery

cquist · 07-12-2007, 05:58 PM

Hi,

I just joined the group and am more familiar with Winchesters then I am with Lugers. I went over to this gentleman's home who is liquidating many of his fathers guns (mostly mauser and other european based types), cameras (leica), watches (Rolex), and reloading equipment. The one that caught my eye was a DWM marked 1917 on the bridge (hopefully I am using the terms properly). It had an eight inch barrel along with a holster which had a shoulder stock and strap connected to it. It looked better then 95% with matching serial numbers (in fact I didn't see any wear on it at all). The only serial number which was not there was the clip, which had a wooden grip on the bottom of it, but initially I did not see a number on it. He claimed that he was the only one to ever fire it, but considering his age (probably around 65), I am not sure he would know, since he did not have it from the beginning. I went there looking at other items, but I saw this. He said he was going to take it to a gunshow this weekend and see if he could get $3K for it. Is it worth more then this? Any thoughts? I really don't have $3K laying around right now, and do not want to pay the divorse costs, but it was still very tempting.

Curtis

Navy · 07-12-2007, 06:54 PM

That gun, if actually in the condition you describe, and the stock is matching...well it is worth easily $5K or more.

Tom A

Tony S. · 07-12-2007, 09:30 PM

I purchased one at the Tulsa show for $3500 with matching stock, very good to excellent 1915 Holster and strap. The gun is probably 95%. I thought I got a bargain! I agree with Tom, these guns w/matching accessories are selling for around $5K. If you can get this one for $3K and it is as described, buy it.
However and since you are less familiar with Lugers, I recommend that you take pics and post them here before you make the purchase so the experts can give you a better advice.
/r Tony
"SEMPER PARATUS"

Big Norm · 07-12-2007, 09:43 PM

Curtis,
I would agree with Tom, especially if the holster had some manufacturers markings and was in good shape. It wouldn't hurt any if there was a cup on the nose of the holster which holds the metal of the stock in place. If you buy this rig, post some pictures.

Watch out for the sales talk though. Remember Homer Simpsons saying..."The happy time is between the time a lie is told and the time it is found out". This guy has already told you that he is the only one to ever shoot this gun. Yah, right.

Don't worry about the divorce either. She won't take the gun in the divorce settlement. Maybe every thing else you have or will have, but not the gun. But you can always buy everything else, but not this Luger.
Big Norm

Tim Reynolds · 07-13-2007, 08:45 AM

I like the Simpson quote,I think the movie opens today.Norm is right about the wife not taking the gun,she will probably use it on you.

cquist · 07-13-2007, 07:51 PM

So how do I put pictures on here?

I have some now. Here are some questions. There is no serial number on the clip, everything else has matching numbers, including the shoulder assembly. The holster has the cleaning rod and some kind loading device inside the holster.

In relation to the question about the cup on the holster, there is a strap (about 1/2 inche wide) at the end of the holster which loops around the sholder attachment.

There is some slight (and I mean real slight) wear on the corners of the trigger guard, the grips on the action, and the very end of the barrel. It does not appeared reblued at all, but I am sure some folks are very good at it.

The one question I have is that the holster is black leather, but the strap which is hooked to it is a dark brown. Is this common?

OK, here are some photos

I will add some more in a few minutes

cquist · 07-13-2007, 08:30 PM

Here are some more.

So, what do you think it is worth?

Curtis

George Anderson · 07-13-2007, 08:50 PM

All of the leather is fake and the stock appears to be fake also but I would need some good close-up photos to be certain. Close-ups of the stock iron and any stock markings would be helpful.

As to the pistol it would be helpful to have close-ups of the top of the toggle train and the serial number on the barrel.

cquist · 07-13-2007, 10:12 PM

There were no markings on the holster or the stock. Here is one more showing the metal where it connects to the stock. I don't know that I have any that are better then the ones you have seen for the top of the toggle.

Curtis

George Anderson · 07-14-2007, 08:50 AM

Need more photos of the iron on the other side and top to make a real judgement. Wood looks like it might be good, perhaps a 1920's commercial.

Pete Ebbink · 07-14-2007, 11:09 AM

Strawed parts look re-done...

Ron Wood · 07-14-2007, 02:35 PM

The straw isn't any crisper than the rest of the gun. Either it is a really fine original or one heck of a restoration. Lots of fire blue and appropriate high edge wear. I'm like George, I'd like to see a clear shot of the numbers on the barrel, but it is looking pretty good so far.

Tim Reynolds · 07-14-2007, 04:22 PM

Looks more black than blue.My guess is it is restored.

383 magnum · 07-15-2007, 09:47 AM

It looks original to me.

drbuster · 07-15-2007, 10:27 AM

Looks like one of those "yes it is" and "no it isn't" restored controversies. This is one of those pieces that has to be examined in person with good light and lens to be sure. I feel the lack of blue wear near the muzzle would tend to point towards at least partial restoration.

cquist · 07-15-2007, 10:15 PM

Well I didn't buy it. He sold it to a dealer at the auction for $3200. I probably didn't make it clear but the very end of the barrel was worn. The part that bothered me was the leather and stock. There were no markings on either and the leather looked too good. For a 90 year old holster, it looked too good. The gun itself looked good. All of the lettering looked crisp, and at least to me, did not look refinished. I would have probably turned around and resold it, which mean't that it better be worth well more then $3000 to make it worth my while. Just the gun itself would have probably have been worth that though, if I were going to keep it.

Curtis

tenbears · 07-15-2007, 10:18 PM

Looks like it has been refinished at one time to me. As a few others have mention already. I would like to see some good close ups of the barrel numbers.

07-12-2007, 05:58 PM	#1
cquist User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1917 Marked Artillery Hi, I just joined the group and am more familiar with Winchesters then I am with Lugers. I went over to this gentleman's home who is liquidating many of his fathers guns (mostly mauser and other european based types), cameras (leica), watches (Rolex), and reloading equipment. The one that caught my eye was a DWM marked 1917 on the bridge (hopefully I am using the terms properly). It had an eight inch barrel along with a holster which had a shoulder stock and strap connected to it. It looked better then 95% with matching serial numbers (in fact I didn't see any wear on it at all). The only serial number which was not there was the clip, which had a wooden grip on the bottom of it, but initially I did not see a number on it. He claimed that he was the only one to ever fire it, but considering his age (probably around 65), I am not sure he would know, since he did not have it from the beginning. I went there looking at other items, but I saw this. He said he was going to take it to a gunshow this weekend and see if he could get $3K for it. Is it worth more then this? Any thoughts? I really don't have $3K laying around right now, and do not want to pay the divorse costs, but it was still very tempting. Curtis

07-13-2007, 08:45 AM	#5
Tim Reynolds User Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 40 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I like the Simpson quote,I think the movie opens today.Norm is right about the wife not taking the gun,she will probably use it on you. __________________ If the magazine does not match,it is a mismatched Luger

07-14-2007, 02:35 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	The straw isn't any crisper than the rest of the gun. Either it is a really fine original or one heck of a restoration. Lots of fire blue and appropriate high edge wear. I'm like George, I'd like to see a clear shot of the numbers on the barrel, but it is looking pretty good so far. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-14-2007, 04:22 PM	#13
Tim Reynolds User Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 40 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looks more black than blue.My guess is it is restored. __________________ If the magazine does not match,it is a mismatched Luger

07-12-2007, 06:54 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	That gun, if actually in the condition you describe, and the stock is matching...well it is worth easily $5K or more. Tom A

07-12-2007, 09:30 PM	#3
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I purchased one at the Tulsa show for $3500 with matching stock, very good to excellent 1915 Holster and strap. The gun is probably 95%. I thought I got a bargain! I agree with Tom, these guns w/matching accessories are selling for around $5K. If you can get this one for $3K and it is as described, buy it. However and since you are less familiar with Lugers, I recommend that you take pics and post them here before you make the purchase so the experts can give you a better advice. /r Tony "SEMPER PARATUS"

07-12-2007, 09:43 PM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Curtis, I would agree with Tom, especially if the holster had some manufacturers markings and was in good shape. It wouldn't hurt any if there was a cup on the nose of the holster which holds the metal of the stock in place. If you buy this rig, post some pictures. Watch out for the sales talk though. Remember Homer Simpsons saying..."The happy time is between the time a lie is told and the time it is found out". This guy has already told you that he is the only one to ever shoot this gun. Yah, right. Don't worry about the divorce either. She won't take the gun in the divorce settlement. Maybe every thing else you have or will have, but not the gun. But you can always buy everything else, but not this Luger. Big Norm

07-13-2007, 07:51 PM	#6
cquist User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So how do I put pictures on here? I have some now. Here are some questions. There is no serial number on the clip, everything else has matching numbers, including the shoulder assembly. The holster has the cleaning rod and some kind loading device inside the holster. In relation to the question about the cup on the holster, there is a strap (about 1/2 inche wide) at the end of the holster which loops around the sholder attachment. There is some slight (and I mean real slight) wear on the corners of the trigger guard, the grips on the action, and the very end of the barrel. It does not appeared reblued at all, but I am sure some folks are very good at it. The one question I have is that the holster is black leather, but the strap which is hooked to it is a dark brown. Is this common? OK, here are some photos I will add some more in a few minutes

07-13-2007, 08:30 PM	#7
cquist User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are some more. So, what do you think it is worth? Curtis

07-13-2007, 08:50 PM	#8
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	All of the leather is fake and the stock appears to be fake also but I would need some good close-up photos to be certain. Close-ups of the stock iron and any stock markings would be helpful. As to the pistol it would be helpful to have close-ups of the top of the toggle train and the serial number on the barrel.

07-13-2007, 10:12 PM	#9
cquist User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	There were no markings on the holster or the stock. Here is one more showing the metal where it connects to the stock. I don't know that I have any that are better then the ones you have seen for the top of the toggle. Curtis

07-14-2007, 08:50 AM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Need more photos of the iron on the other side and top to make a real judgement. Wood looks like it might be good, perhaps a 1920's commercial.

07-14-2007, 11:09 AM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Strawed parts look re-done...

07-15-2007, 09:47 AM	#14
383 magnum User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 120 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It looks original to me.

07-15-2007, 10:27 AM	#15
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Looks like one of those "yes it is" and "no it isn't" restored controversies. This is one of those pieces that has to be examined in person with good light and lens to be sure. I feel the lack of blue wear near the muzzle would tend to point towards at least partial restoration.

07-15-2007, 10:15 PM	#16
cquist User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well I didn't buy it. He sold it to a dealer at the auction for $3200. I probably didn't make it clear but the very end of the barrel was worn. The part that bothered me was the leather and stock. There were no markings on either and the leather looked too good. For a 90 year old holster, it looked too good. The gun itself looked good. All of the lettering looked crisp, and at least to me, did not look refinished. I would have probably turned around and resold it, which mean't that it better be worth well more then $3000 to make it worth my while. Just the gun itself would have probably have been worth that though, if I were going to keep it. Curtis

07-15-2007, 10:18 PM	#17
tenbears User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 370 Thanks: 3 Thanked 26 Times in 15 Posts	Looks like it has been refinished at one time to me. As a few others have mention already. I would like to see some good close ups of the barrel numbers.