Eric needs help with ID an usual rifle~~

[danielsand]

I know what you're saying.

ZF41 is my favorite for that period, but we all have to remember,......the rifles, AND the accessories, we are talking about here, belong to the certain time in history. Zeiss 41 was THE scope of the day, but just like weaponry advanced (in some ways), so did the optics.

It's unfair to compare ZF41 to the modern optics, just like it's unfair to compare a modern Mercedes to the one that drove Hitler around.

As far as "sore shoulder"........there is a way to hold the rifle to minimize the impact. Some people even wear shoulder pads over the shooting shoulder (I don't). I fire 3-4 magloads out of my M48, and I can feel the effects of it for few days, but it makes me "feel like a man" in some stupid way. I feel I'm closer to my ancestors when I shoot it.

Today's optics have features that help in the zeroing, range finding, trajectory paths, etc. ZF41 was VERY simple, with masterfully ground lenses (Zeiss is famous for that), and it took a great deal of training and skill to place that "perfect shot".

If you want to see this rifle/scope combo in action, rent "The Enemy at The Gates" and see it against Russian set up.

[cirelaw]

TKS for your fine post!! I love the German sniper rifle and the Ed Harris character!

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by danielsand

I know what you're saying.

ZF41 is my favorite for that period, but we all have to remember,......the rifles, AND the accessories, we are talking about here, belong to the certain time in history. Zeiss 41 was THE scope of the day, but just like weaponry advanced (in some ways), so did the optics.

It's unfair to compare ZF41 to the modern optics, just like it's unfair to compare a modern Mercedes to the one that drove Hitler around.

As far as "sore shoulder"........there is a way to hold the rifle to minimize the impact. Some people even wear shoulder pads over the shooting shoulder (I don't). I fire 3-4 magloads out of my M48, and I can feel the effects of it for few days, but it makes me "feel like a man" in some stupid way. I feel I'm closer to my ancestors when I shoot it.

Today's optics have features that help in the zeroing, range finding, trajectory paths, etc. ZF41 was VERY simple, with masterfully ground lenses (Zeiss is famous for that), and it took a great deal of training and skill to place that "perfect shot".

If you want to see this rifle/scope combo in action, rent "The Enemy at The Gates" and see it against Russian set up.

Daniel and Eric,

I did see that film not long ago really, beautiful but sad like many war films, thank God at least it had an happy ending!
Still on ZF41 / ZF42 here they are called "sniper scopes", but I think at the time they were only for sharpshooters, as they weren't magnifying enough and almost "mass produced".

Sergio

[Sergio Natali]

Eric and Daniel

Still referring to the film "The Enemy at The Gates" Jude Law was using a Mosin Nagant 91/30, never owned one but tried it at the range several years ago.
Fine weapon, but I preferred the K98K, in my opinion the best single action of its time.


Sergio

[George Anderson]

The first rifle shown by Sergio has a laminate Oak stock as was used by the Germans in the latter years of the war. The second rifle he shows has a Beech stock.

[danielsand]

My absolutely favorite "sniper" rifle (actually DMR- designated marksman's rifle) is by far the Yugo M76. In my favorite (and original) 7.92X57 caliber (also known as "8mm Mauser" in the US). They were made (for US market) in .308 also, but I'm a stickler when it comes to "original".

I tried the Moisin-Nagant several times (I don't own one), and for some reason I dislike the 7.62R (don't know why). I also have a FINE #4 Enfield (scoped), and I am not fond of the .303 either (go figure). 8mm Mauser "feels right", I'm good with it to a great distance (scoped or not), and I decided this IS "my" caliber.

I am definitely in the "wrong forum" here, because I prefer ANY rifle over a handgun, ....but I LIKE this forum, and the great people that contribute to it, and I'm ABSOLUTELY in love with my 1918 Erfurt.

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by George Anderson

The first rifle shown by Sergio has a laminate Oak stock as was used by the Germans in the latter years of the war. The second rifle he shows has a Beech stock.

You're right, as the first is a Yugo M98/48n practically an ex K98K 124 cm long with all the German marks erased, while the second is a Yugo M48 ( leght cm 108)
Personally I've always loved oack stocks, the first laminated stocks for K98K were produced by Mauser from 1939 and from 1940/41 had cupper steel butt plates; while if I'm not wrong Zastava M48 had teak stocks.

Sergio

[danielsand]

If some of you want to go into depth of the Yugoslavian weaponry, you should find a book "Yugoslavian and Serbian Mauser rifles" written by retired JNA Col. Branko Bogdanovic.

Branko is active on several mil surp forums, and participates in discussions. After he retired from the military, he searched archives in Belgrade, and Zastava factory in Kragujevac, and wrote a very accurate book about these rifles.

I never had a chance to read his book, and my knowledge on this subject comes from what I was told in school (in Yugoslavia), and my personal experience with most of the Yugo weaponry in the field. The parts of Branko's book I've seen posted on the Internet, and his information is VERY accurate.

As far as TEAK stocks...........I don't know if any of you remember so called "Mitchell Mausers"? Mitchel is known for "embellishing" with fancy words (tales, half truths, and outright lies) everything they sell. They imported THOUSANDS of nice condition M48s, refurbished them, reblued, etc. and called them "Mitchell Mausers" with teak stocks!!! The teak tale then transferred to later imported weapons like M76, M70 and variants, and thousands of people believe yugo rifles have teak stocks!

They don't. The wood is Yugoslavian Birch, and/or Elm. Both type of woods were used, and covered with BLO and cosmolene, they are indistinguishable from each other.

American company by the name "Ironwood" produces replacement stocks for Yugo weaponry, and they made them out of Teak believing the tale started by Mitchell. Then they analized the wood closely (these people KNOW wood, that's their trade!), and couldn't tell the origin from the composition.

To be honest,.....if you put one stock made from teak by Ironwood, next to Zastava original, you can't tell the difference! If it makes people feel good to believe their stocks are teak,....let it be. Teak is VERY expensive wood, and M48s (and everything else made in Zastava) were mas produced in the Communist country "on the budget". Quality? Yes. Exotic/expensive (which Teak is!)? Definitely no.

[cirelaw]

After reading you wonderful comments, I did some more digging and found the sniper gold mine site! You can enlarge every rifle~ http://www.militaryfactory.com/image...urrentPic=pic3

[rolandtg]

Originally Posted by danielsand

Exotic/expensive (which Teak is!)? Definitely no.

I stand corrected. Whatever the wood is it is very dense and totally saturated with cosmoline. When I got the rifle I left the stock out in the Texas sun for several hours to leach out some of the cosmoline. 20 years later the stock still weeps oil when it gets hot at the range....

[Sergio Natali]

Daniel

quote " ...If some of you want to go into depth of the Yugoslavian weaponry, you should find a book "Yugoslavian and Serbian Mauser rifles" written by retired JNA Col. Branko Bogdanovic."
unqute

I think I found it: B Bogdanovich "Serbian & Yugoslav Mauser Rifles" North Cape Publshing Inc.

practically the "bible" of the Yugoslav Mausers.


Sergio

[cirelaw]

This morning after reading your wonderful came upon this article~~http://armedbutnotdangerous.blogspot...avian-m48.html

[Sergio Natali]

... yes, but

I still prefer the original K98K ... I still have a weak sport for it...
although it's not rare at all I think they made about 100 million of them, but with a bit of patience in 70/80 years it will become rarer and more expensive.


Sergio

[cirelaw]

Can we try this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6IDbi3wbRg

[danielsand]

Now that you all informed yourselves about the M48 (or M48A), you know how nice these rifles are. K98 is much sought by collectors (ones that collect German weapons exclusively), and clean specimens command pretty high price. M48 went up in price considerably in the last ten years or so, but it's still WAY cheaper than K98.

I purchased mine from a Phoenix PD Sergeant in the condition I mentioned (practically NEW), for $160 back in 2007. Over the years I accumulated a sizable "collection" of the weapons that I was interested in. So in 2007 I decided to give my "collection" some kind of "theme", and since I've spent my childhood in Yugoslavia (already owned several Yugo weapons), I cleaned my safe of some weapons that "didn't fit" into my "theme", and concentrated on Yugo only. Naturally, the M48 was the #1 in the lineup, because it was the first weapon I've ever fired. In the late 90s I was in Bosnia and Croatia, and I used almost all of Yugo armament of that time, "in the field", so I was VERY familiar with all of them.

Some of the weapons I got rid of I will miss for a long time (G3, FAL, Uzi). But now my Yugo lineup consists of M57 pistol, M48, M59/66, M70B1, M70AB1, M72, M76, and M53.

There are still MANY more that "don't fit" into the Yugo theme, but I am emotionally attached to them, and they are staying with me forever.

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by rolandtg

I stand corrected. Whatever the wood is it is very dense and totally saturated with cosmoline. When I got the rifle I left the stock out in the Texas sun for several hours to leach out some of the cosmoline. 20 years later the stock still weeps oil when it gets hot at the range....

I was present (in Yugoslavia) when some of these were put in reserves. I was shocked to see how they (Yugo conscripts) dunked the WHOLE rifle into the "tub" filled with warm cosmo. Once the rifle is dunked in (one at the time), it's pulled out, and for a good measure MORE cosmo is poured down the barrel with a ladle. Rifle is then put aside in the stack (stacked like cord wood) in the picture seen in Eric's post, and when the cosmo solidifies, rifles were wrapped in the paper, and crated five per crate.

I would LOVE to lay my hands on one of those nifty crates! They were made of birch, with compartments for all the accessories that came with the rifles (bayonets, slings, oilers, ammo pouches). The crate was plain wood inside, and OD painted on the outside, with white and yellow lettering. Rifles were separated from each other with built in spacers, and spacers had felt lining glued over the wood, where spacers made contact with rifles.

Very neat, secure, and efficient.

The best way to get cosmo out of the wood, is to take the action out of the stock, wrap it in the paper towels, place it in the black garbage bag, and put it on the roof of your house. For DAYS! Open the package daily, and replace the paper towels with clean ones. In a week or two, you'll have a cosmo free stock (depending on the climate, of course).

[rolandtg]

Originally Posted by danielsand

The best way to get cosmo out of the wood, is to take the action out of the stock, wrap it in the paper towels, place it in the black garbage bag, and put it on the roof of your house. For DAYS! Open the package daily, and replace the paper towels with clean ones. In a week or two, you'll have a cosmo free stock (depending on the climate, of course).

The rifle was new when I got it. It was a "Mitchell" gun purchased by my father. He never got to shoot it before he passed away.
Even though it had been cleaned by Mitchell I found the bolt so packed with cosmoline the firing pin wouldn't move!

Heh, It sounds like a good plan but I think in the Texas summer the stock might burst into flames if I left it on the roof!

[danielsand]

Here in SoCal we get up to 110F, and this method worked for me. For metal parts, .....boiling works great!

As far as "new" when it comes to Mitchell.......it was "refurbished" by Mitchell, and VERY pretty. Not "JNA original", but still a nice weapon. I hope you enjoy it, as much as I enjoy mine.

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Can we try this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6IDbi3wbRg

I watched this video you posted, and the guy in it is NOT too familiar withe this system. I'll explain.

The "wing" at the end of the bolt he demonstrates to be at "safety on" position in the VERTICAL orientation. This is INCORRECT!

When the "wing" is on the left, the rifle is ready to fire. When it's fully to the right, the rife is "on safe". The vertical position is used ONLY for dis assembly of the bolt! When this wing is vertical, the bolt is removed from the rifle (magazine is empty!!), and in this position (and this position only), the bolt body can be separated from the bolt "head" by depressing the plunger,visible at the "collar". Once the bolt body is separated, the firing pin is placed into the metal "ring" on the stock (on K98), the wing is forced downward with the thumb (against the spring), and the firing pin can be removed, by turning the connector 90 degrees. On M48, the tip of the firing pin is placed into the nut of the crossbolt, and treated the same way (M48 does not have the metal "ring" imbeded into the stock.

Bottom line,.....the rifle is NOT safe with the wing vertical!! The wing should NEVER (as in never-ever) be in the vertical position if the rifle has a round in the chamber. If dropped it can fire.

Be safe folks. This disassembly procedure was drilled into me in the elementary school in Belgrade, back in 1968.

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by danielsand

I watched this video you posted, and the guy in it is NOT too familiar withe this system. I'll explain.

The "wing" at the end of the bolt he demonstrates to be at "safety on" position in the VERTICAL orientation. This is INCORRECT!

When the "wing" is on the left, the rifle is ready to fire. When it's fully to the right, the rife is "on safe". The vertical position is used ONLY for dis assembly of the bolt! When this wing is vertical, the bolt is removed from the rifle (magazine is empty!!), and in this position (and this position only), the bolt body can be separated from the bolt "head" by depressing the plunger,visible at the "collar". Once the bolt body is separated, the firing pin is placed into the metal "ring" on the stock (on K98), the wing is forced downward with the thumb (against the spring), and the firing pin can be removed, by turning the connector 90 degrees. On M48, the tip of the firing pin is placed into the nut of the crossbolt, and treated the same way (M48 does not have the metal "ring" imbeded into the stock.

Bottom line,.....the rifle is NOT safe with the wing vertical!! The wing should NEVER (as in never-ever) be in the vertical position if the rifle has a round in the chamber. If dropped it can fire.

Be safe folks. This disassembly procedure was drilled into me in the elementary school in Belgrade, back in 1968.

Allright, all correct, but remember that Hickock45, that you surely know, is an icon for many of us.




Sergio