Help with inherited Navy Luger

steven_robert_lee · 11-09-2013, 12:29 AM

I am wondering if someone may be able to help me. My grandfather brought back a WWI Navy Luger from the war that I have inherited. The luger is a DWM Gesichert navy luger, 9mm, which is represented by a marking M with crown anchor on it. It is complete with the shoulder stock serial number #6050 that matches the gun serial number #6050, therefore the wood stock is original. The barrel is 6". There is no date stamp on the top of the barrel and the shoulder stock and back of the gun has IITD 139 stamped on it, which represents the Second Torpedo Division. I've attached some pictures.

The mechanics of the gun are working. However the overall condition is poor, as can be seen by the pitting and loss of blue. I would be interested in selling the gun depending on the value in it's current state or restoring it prior to selling. However, a few dealers have recommended that I do not restore it as it may lose value and I won't recoup the restoration cost. I appreciate any help.

Edward Tinker · 11-09-2013, 12:47 AM

welcome to the forum. Are you reading notes or? As you seem to already know about it? Sorry to say, but wow, thats in pretty poor shape.

I would think a proper restore would cost several thousand dollars, or most restorers would not accept it, as it will require welding and then proper fixing....

I will take a guess and say that it might be worth $2000-$2500 as a complete rig and that is generous in my opinion?

klaus 3338 · 11-09-2013, 03:09 AM

That is one Navy rig of big interest to me: It has the altered stock with the second disc which can only be seen with torpedo boot units (I started a thread on Jan´s site some month ago). It is the forth of these altered stocks and in this kind it did not allow to use it with holster and strap. I would like to know what the reason for the alteration was.
Thanks for sharing!

Norme · 11-09-2013, 09:34 AM

Hi Rob, Welcome to the forum! I was sent photos of your Navy rig a week or two ago, and as you have been told, it's in very sad shape. It's especially sad as it's an ultra rare double matched rig, not only do the gun and stock have matching serial and unit numbers, but the magazine does as well! I think Ed was too conservative in his value estimation, the stock alone is worth over $2,000.00, but finding a buyer is not going to be easy.
Regards, Norm

steven_robert_lee · 11-09-2013, 01:44 PM

Thank-you very much for your quick replies. My wife and I have researched this past week on the web and felt there was something different with this unit. I received a quote from Lugerman of $2500 to restore the gun with an estimated value of $7000-$8500 after restoration, which seems worth the effort on the surface. However, I want to ensure a quality restoration and not ruin its authenticity. Does this seem accurate, or should I keep looking? Any recommendations for someone to restore it? Thanks again - I should have started with this forum. I have received offers from $400-$1000 from dealers with no help to restore. I have been told that the gun looks worse in the pictures than actual. They were taken with a DSLR to show detail.

Norme · 11-09-2013, 04:25 PM

Hi Rob, First, some history. 1906 Navy #6050 is a known gun. It was first reported in a list of surviving Navy Lugers put out by a Mr Pat Redmond in 1975, and then was listed in "World of Lugers" by Sam Costanzo in 1977. I'm presently carrying the Navy List torch, and it's nice to finally set eyes on this piece, although it's sad to see it in such pitiful condition.
I really don't know how to advise you going forward. This double matching rig is of great interest to serious Navy collectors but it's condition is too poor as it now stands, and they wouldn't touch it once it's been restored. Lugerman does do excellent work, but he's painfully slow. I would expect a job of this complexity to take him at least a year. If you think I'm exaggerating search "Lugerman" on this forum! Furthermore, I think his estimate of a finished value of over $7,000.00 is very optimistic. If someone offers you $3,000.00 for the rig in it's unrestored state, I'd suggest you take it. Perhaps Lugerman would be interested?
Regards, Norm

lugerholsterrepair · 11-09-2013, 07:36 PM

Norm has given very good advice..There are restorations and there are restorations. One on a pistol like this would have to be done correctly first of all but EXTENSIVELY. Every pit filled and filed. Proof marks refreshed. At the end you would be offering essentially a reproduction pistol..not what it EVER was. Although interesting it is not the holy grail of Navy pistols. IF it were in even 75-80% condition it would certainly be worth $7,000. As is I have to agree with Norm..$3000 is as much as I would pay. Mayhap someone out there would pay more. Suffering through a restoration could bring you a bunch of agony. Not knowing the right guy to send it to. Not knowing the questions to ask..then after a great deal of time and money..trying to re coup it on the other end. What? To make another 500-1000? Maybe?
If I were going to send this one to anyone on this Planet for the best restoration in the known World it would be to Gale Morgan. I know another handful of GOOD restorer's-bluers and no disrespect to these great craftsmen but Gale would do this treasure justice..the right way. You are not shopping price here but skill. IF you were to put the money into having it done RIGHT I think you MIGHT get it out of this pistol. A collector would do this and not care about the cost..a re seller HAS to think it over carefully.
So I guess it depends on how much trouble you are willing to suffer.

Edward Tinker · 11-09-2013, 09:26 PM

I personally know of a rare luger that Gale did for a collector, I want to say the collector paid $8 or $9,000 for the restore ALONE and it was a year or more to get done.

When you start needing welding, filing, then getting everything to look good (so I have been told) the cost goes up dramatically....

If this was a 1904, then I would say yes and I like the rarity of the gun, stock and mag - but ALL needs to be restored IMHO

tenbears · 11-09-2013, 09:49 PM

A lot of people would be surprise how much interest their is in relic condition collectables. I think this Luger comes close to the category of (relic). The stock does not which commands top dollar.

G.T. · 11-09-2013, 10:38 PM

I'm going to take a shot at this and recommend that you use our own forum member Thor!!! He has proven time and again that he can replicate all the quality that was original to the guns!..... This would be the perfect project for him, and it would be an outstanding piece when completed... I usually feel, that when you can't possibly hurt it anymore than it already has been,.. time to restore... Ted would be a perfect resource for this.... he's as good as any... more reasonable than most as well.... Just my thoughts.... best to all, til...lat'r...GT

steven_robert_lee · 11-10-2013, 02:19 PM

I would definitely be interested in Thor's thoughts based on the pictures. Although, I am not sure how to contact him through the forum. From what I am reading, though, I would be more prudent to find a buyer in it's current state, someone who would want to ensure that the restoration is done to his expectations as a collector, rather than myself as a reseller. Any recommendations on where I should list it? I am open to offers. Thank-you again for all your help.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-10-2013, 02:55 PM

Steven, You can list it here on this site..free. You can also list it on Jan Still's Gun Boards-another Luger Forum. Free as well. Saves you 10-20% In comissions.

CAP Black · 11-10-2013, 11:49 PM

I might be interested in making a purchase of this item.
thanks
Jack

alanint · 11-11-2013, 05:49 AM

I'd like to hear more ideas as to the additional disk on the stock. Perhaps the fastener for a single point sling? an additional attachment?

Norme · 11-11-2013, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

I'd like to hear more ideas as to the additional disk on the stock. Perhaps the fastener for a single point sling? an additional attachment?

Hi Doug, The "second disc" is actually the base for a shoulder strap attachment. This modification is quite rare and is only found on stocks with Torpedo Division unit marks. It allows a gun with stock attached to be carried over the shoulder, ready for instant use.
Regards, Norm

alanint · 11-11-2013, 10:07 AM

So, "Single point sling attachment" wasn't too far off!

Thanks, Norme!!

Thor · 11-12-2013, 02:06 PM

The need for welding and the time required would rule me out, I am swamped. I do think this is a Gale Morgan candidate. He would do the best job IMO. Thor

11-09-2013, 12:29 AM	#1
steven_robert_lee New User Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help with inherited Navy Luger I am wondering if someone may be able to help me. My grandfather brought back a WWI Navy Luger from the war that I have inherited. The luger is a DWM Gesichert navy luger, 9mm, which is represented by a marking M with crown anchor on it. It is complete with the shoulder stock serial number #6050 that matches the gun serial number #6050, therefore the wood stock is original. The barrel is 6". There is no date stamp on the top of the barrel and the shoulder stock and back of the gun has IITD 139 stamped on it, which represents the Second Torpedo Division. I've attached some pictures. The mechanics of the gun are working. However the overall condition is poor, as can be seen by the pitting and loss of blue. I would be interested in selling the gun depending on the value in it's current state or restoring it prior to selling. However, a few dealers have recommended that I do not restore it as it may lose value and I won't recoup the restoration cost. I appreciate any help. Attached Thumbnails

11-09-2013, 12:47 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	welcome to the forum. Are you reading notes or? As you seem to already know about it? Sorry to say, but wow, thats in pretty poor shape. I would think a proper restore would cost several thousand dollars, or most restorers would not accept it, as it will require welding and then proper fixing.... I will take a guess and say that it might be worth $2000-$2500 as a complete rig and that is generous in my opinion? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-09-2013, 07:36 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,933 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Norm has given very good advice..There are restorations and there are restorations. One on a pistol like this would have to be done correctly first of all but EXTENSIVELY. Every pit filled and filed. Proof marks refreshed. At the end you would be offering essentially a reproduction pistol..not what it EVER was. Although interesting it is not the holy grail of Navy pistols. IF it were in even 75-80% condition it would certainly be worth $7,000. As is I have to agree with Norm..$3000 is as much as I would pay. Mayhap someone out there would pay more. Suffering through a restoration could bring you a bunch of agony. Not knowing the right guy to send it to. Not knowing the questions to ask..then after a great deal of time and money..trying to re coup it on the other end. What? To make another 500-1000? Maybe? If I were going to send this one to anyone on this Planet for the best restoration in the known World it would be to Gale Morgan. I know another handful of GOOD restorer's-bluers and no disrespect to these great craftsmen but Gale would do this treasure justice..the right way. You are not shopping price here but skill. IF you were to put the money into having it done RIGHT I think you MIGHT get it out of this pistol. A collector would do this and not care about the cost..a re seller HAS to think it over carefully. So I guess it depends on how much trouble you are willing to suffer. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-09-2013, 10:38 PM	#10
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	Restoration quality! I'm going to take a shot at this and recommend that you use our own forum member Thor!!! He has proven time and again that he can replicate all the quality that was original to the guns!..... This would be the perfect project for him, and it would be an outstanding piece when completed... I usually feel, that when you can't possibly hurt it anymore than it already has been,.. time to restore... Ted would be a perfect resource for this.... he's as good as any... more reasonable than most as well.... Just my thoughts.... best to all, til...lat'r...GT

11-10-2013, 02:55 PM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,933 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Steven, You can list it here on this site..free. You can also list it on Jan Still's Gun Boards-another Luger Forum. Free as well. Saves you 10-20% In comissions. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-09-2013, 03:09 AM	#3
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 517 Thanks: 0 Thanked 411 Times in 160 Posts	That is one Navy rig of big interest to me: It has the altered stock with the second disc which can only be seen with torpedo boot units (I started a thread on Jan´s site some month ago). It is the forth of these altered stocks and in this kind it did not allow to use it with holster and strap. I would like to know what the reason for the alteration was. Thanks for sharing!

11-09-2013, 09:34 AM	#4
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Rob, Welcome to the forum! I was sent photos of your Navy rig a week or two ago, and as you have been told, it's in very sad shape. It's especially sad as it's an ultra rare double matched rig, not only do the gun and stock have matching serial and unit numbers, but the magazine does as well! I think Ed was too conservative in his value estimation, the stock alone is worth over $2,000.00, but finding a buyer is not going to be easy. Regards, Norm

11-09-2013, 01:44 PM	#5
steven_robert_lee New User Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank-you very much for your quick replies. My wife and I have researched this past week on the web and felt there was something different with this unit. I received a quote from Lugerman of $2500 to restore the gun with an estimated value of $7000-$8500 after restoration, which seems worth the effort on the surface. However, I want to ensure a quality restoration and not ruin its authenticity. Does this seem accurate, or should I keep looking? Any recommendations for someone to restore it? Thanks again - I should have started with this forum. I have received offers from $400-$1000 from dealers with no help to restore. I have been told that the gun looks worse in the pictures than actual. They were taken with a DSLR to show detail.

11-09-2013, 04:25 PM	#6
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Rob, First, some history. 1906 Navy #6050 is a known gun. It was first reported in a list of surviving Navy Lugers put out by a Mr Pat Redmond in 1975, and then was listed in "World of Lugers" by Sam Costanzo in 1977. I'm presently carrying the Navy List torch, and it's nice to finally set eyes on this piece, although it's sad to see it in such pitiful condition. I really don't know how to advise you going forward. This double matching rig is of great interest to serious Navy collectors but it's condition is too poor as it now stands, and they wouldn't touch it once it's been restored. Lugerman does do excellent work, but he's painfully slow. I would expect a job of this complexity to take him at least a year. If you think I'm exaggerating search "Lugerman" on this forum! Furthermore, I think his estimate of a finished value of over $7,000.00 is very optimistic. If someone offers you $3,000.00 for the rig in it's unrestored state, I'd suggest you take it. Perhaps Lugerman would be interested? Regards, Norm

11-09-2013, 09:26 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	I personally know of a rare luger that Gale did for a collector, I want to say the collector paid $8 or $9,000 for the restore ALONE and it was a year or more to get done. When you start needing welding, filing, then getting everything to look good (so I have been told) the cost goes up dramatically.... If this was a 1904, then I would say yes and I like the rarity of the gun, stock and mag - but ALL needs to be restored IMHO

11-09-2013, 09:49 PM	#9
tenbears User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 370 Thanks: 3 Thanked 26 Times in 15 Posts	A lot of people would be surprise how much interest their is in relic condition collectables. I think this Luger comes close to the category of (relic). The stock does not which commands top dollar.

11-10-2013, 02:19 PM	#11
steven_robert_lee New User Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would definitely be interested in Thor's thoughts based on the pictures. Although, I am not sure how to contact him through the forum. From what I am reading, though, I would be more prudent to find a buyer in it's current state, someone who would want to ensure that the restoration is done to his expectations as a collector, rather than myself as a reseller. Any recommendations on where I should list it? I am open to offers. Thank-you again for all your help.

11-10-2013, 11:49 PM	#13
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	I might be interested in making a purchase of this item. thanks Jack

11-11-2013, 05:49 AM	#14
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I'd like to hear more ideas as to the additional disk on the stock. Perhaps the fastener for a single point sling? an additional attachment?

11-11-2013, 10:07 AM	#16
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	So, "Single point sling attachment" wasn't too far off! Thanks, Norme!!

11-12-2013, 02:06 PM	#17
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	The need for welding and the time required would rule me out, I am swamped. I do think this is a Gale Morgan candidate. He would do the best job IMO. Thor __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."