Space between chamber and breach block

[willyboy]

You'll have to bear with me on these photos, I took them with my phone. Here you can see the issue.



Relatively clean breach block area.



Rear of the chamber where the extractor slides in. I made sure to scrape out any debris (there really was none).



You can see that the S-hook is properly engaged in the main spring. (Yes I see the rust. The flash definitely exaggerates it, I have only scrubbed with cotton patches at this point, haven't gotten around to attacking with some steel wool.)



There is a little bit of rust in this area. Honestly there isn't enough to cause this.



Anyone know what the problem might be?
I will be getting after the rust soon, but I'm wondering if there are any lugerforum members in Arkansas, USA that might like to look at the gun in person, if they feel they can help with this issue.

[wlyon]

There is always a space between the breechblock and the chamber. How much seems to vary luger by luger. Does this function ok? I'm not sure you have a problem? The space looks wide but I have some around the same. Bill

[willyboy]

I haven't attempted to shoot this gun as I was advised that it may not be safe. Not sure if thats correct or not. I'm mostly worried about what you see in the final picture.

[wlyon]

Didn't really look at your last picture. Are you sure this was assembled correctly? I agree I wouild not shoot it until someone looks it over. First I would check the assembly. If this is a matching Vickers I would not shoot it anyway. Bill

[willyboy]

I will say that I am new to Lugers, as this is the only one I have handled. However, I don't think I have improperly reassembled this gun. Should any decent gunsmith know his way around a Luger well enough to diagnose the problem? I can take it to a gunsmith.

Apart from the magazine, it is an all matching Dutch Vickers. One of the magazines is original and the other is one made later (marked QS).

[Vlim]

There is no problem, it's absolutely normal.

Whatever you do: DON'T SHOOT IT. Vickers lugers are rare, parts are numbered and impossible to find correct replacements for. You will turn your $3000+ pistol in a $1000- gun in one go if you are unlucky.

If you feel the need to shoot a luger, pick up a shooter grade pistol and play with that instead.

Can you post pictures of the magazines? Dutch magazines are unnumbered and there were several variations.

[Ron Wood]

I also would like to see more photos, magazines and gun. It looks like the ID plate is ?.H XXI/17. Is the letter that precedes the "H" a "R" or "L". Your Vickers Luger was issued to either the "Rignt Half" or the "Left Half" of the 21st Infantry Battalion, weapon number 17. I have a Vickers that was issued to the Left Half of the 21st, weapon number 12!
The "QS" on your magazine is actually a "GS" and indicates that it was made or overhauled at the government arsenal in Indonesia. It is an original and proper replacement magazine for Dutch Lugers.
You have a very desirable Luger in nice condition. The recommendation not to fire it should be taken very seriously. Thank you for sharing it with us.

[willyboy]

I apologize, I meant to say grips not magazines, not sure how I didn't catch that mistake of mine. As far as I know the one mag that I have is unmarked and has no metal pin in the wood base. And I meant GS, not sure what I was thinking last night haha, musta been the holiday cheer.

[willyboy]

This is "Grandpa's Gun" in the military p08 forum.

[mrerick]

Hi Willyboy,

I echo the recommendation from other members to never fire this Luger. It is a piece of history, and rather rare.

Also, use extreme care when stabilizing the rust. It should be stabilized as soon as possible. You'll see discussion about how to gently remove red iron oxide using oiled very fine steel wool.

Regardless of the deterioration, never consider refinishing or touching up the bluing or straw. Any of this will considerably reduce the value (historically and financially) of your Luger.

Marc

[mrerick]

I recently helped analyze a pair of cartridge failures that relate to Rick W.'s discussion above.

The 9mm Luger cartridge headspaces on it's case mouth.

When the cartridge is fired, it must be properly supported with it's base supported by the breech face and it's sides supported by the chamber walls.

Normally, the extractor engages in the rim, and tends to pull the cartridge base up against the breech face.

If a 9mm cartridge case is short enough (and out of specs) the cartridge may be pushed too far into the chamber, the extractor not properly engaged in the rim, and a large gap left between the cartridge base and the breech face.

I think that this is what happened here (on both a Luger and a p.38). The result can be catastrophic:

See post #56 in this thread over on Jan Still's forum:

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...oday-!!!/page6

- - - - - -

I've always wondered about the variation of space at the breech end of the toggle train in our Lugers, and it's potential for trouble.

Marc

[willyboy]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

The gap that you are mentioning, sometimes relates to folks two possiblities, headspace or case exposure(cartridge unsupported by chamber). It may or maynot indicate parts change out since original assembly, who knows, the numbers on the parts mean little anymore to those with basic concepts(shooting for instance) for the Luger in mind.

I find the comment on headspace a bit odd, as headspace is simply a measurement of the mechanism's ability to hold the cartridge in the boreline. One could think of a possibility of perfect headspace but half of the cartridge showing when the mechanism in in the locked position.

Case exposure on the other hand(some call this gapspace) is a relative term of how much of the sidewalls of the case are showing(unsupported by barrel proper), including the strengthened web(head) of said case. The Luger weak spots are the ejector slot and the feedramp(?) at the bottom of the barrel proper. As you know the Luger has a lot of parts that contribute to headspace and gapspace, one being the toggle mechanism's tolerance build ups.

There are numbers that people use for such parameters as headspace and gapspace. SAAMI here in the USA says some voluntary info on chambers and cartridge dimensions pertient to headspace. Europe and other parts of the world have their own words on such things.

You might peruse John's schematics or ask if there are numbers in those documents considering these two parameters.

Gunsmiths that I know pretty much adhere to the SAAMI for headspace considerations(wildcats excepted I reckon) but rely on their own experience for gapspace ideas/concepts. One would feel sure the Luger during its manufacture/design had those safety issues well in mind, but as you know, they controlled the manufacture/assembly/test all inclusively. Guns that are approaching 100 years of service, ............might have been touched some by collectors and shooters and others without regard to basic concepts of any type.

I have zero collector's interest, but somewhat of a poor man's shooter type. If the money is of any interest to you, you might keep this one in the drawer properly stored, rather than shoot it and let the collectors loose their interest in purchasing it later on with broken parts.

This is basically a foreign language to me. Could someone dumb this down for me?

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by willyboy

This is basically a foreign language to me. Could someone dumb this down for me?

I'll try. Rich is saying there are two measurements to take in this area. Headspace is the nominal dimension between the back end of the cartridge when it's seated properly in the chamber, and the face of the breech block that corresponds to it, the milled out area in its nose, thru which the firing pin protrudes.
Case exposure is how much of the brass case is visible?/unsupported by chamber structure. If you had an abnormally shallow chamber, the back end of the shell would hang out. You could still have a headspace within acceptable parameters if the overall length of the toggle train were short enough, by the amount the rim protrudes, but situations of excessive case exposure can be dangerous.
The pros have standardized data and measurements available to check against when making these measurements.

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by willyboy

This is "Grandpa's Gun" in the military p08 forum.

Will,
I should have recognized it! I am afraid that I have to blame advancing years rather than too much "holiday cheer" for my memory lapse.

[willyboy]

Thanks ithicaartist, that was easier to understand.