Swiss Rebuild Program

mrerick · 02-07-2014, 02:07 PM

Does documentation exist describing the Swiss Luger rebuild program?

In particular:

- Guidelines describing parts replacement criteria
- Modifications (the "U" sight; Improved parts (like the W+F M1900 Extractor)
- Refinishing guidelines
- A record of specific Luger rebuild including dates / serials / actions taken

I've read through Bobba's book, and nothing addresses this aspect of the Swiss arsenal programs.

If documentation exists, does anyone have access or contacts?

Marc

swissdagger · 03-01-2014, 03:56 AM

Hello Marc,

I have never heard from such a program.

The replacement Extractor for the P1900 ,the ordinance model 1920, was build after too many of the flat DWM Extractors were broken.

The "U" shape rear sight was not an armory modification.
It was an allowed modification if the owner/shooter believed to get better hits on the Shooting contests.

The work was done by gunsmiths,sometimes by the owner himself.

Thanks
Stefan

mrerick · 03-01-2014, 10:01 AM

Stefan, thank you for your information and insight.

Where was armory level maintenance (like barrel replacement) done on Swiss military Lugers? Were major maintenance activities on military Lugers performed by private gunsmiths?

Do the records of these activities exist, and if so, do you know where?

Thanks again, Marc

swissdagger · 03-02-2014, 04:49 AM

Hello Marc,
my english is not the best sorry.
It was allowed only special certified gunsmiths to work on army weapons.
Remember ,the swiss soldiers and officers keeps their personal guns at home outside of the active duty and use them on the Shooting ranges.
So if any Problem with the weapon,the soldier or officer had not to visit the army Arsenal for a repair.
Such a certified gunsmith was able to change barrels or broken parts.He had all the special Tools , stamps and spare parts.
But you had to pay for that work.
A repair in the Arsenal or during the active duty was normally free.

I dont know if it`s still the same today, too many things have changed in the last years....

I have a book with all the certified gunsmiths listed in Switzerland also here are manuals/booklets how a repair was to do and what was not allowed.

Thanks
Stefan

mrerick · 03-02-2014, 10:57 AM

Stefan,

Thank you for this additional information. Believe me, your English is much better than my French or German.

I ask because I recently acquired a 1904 vintage Swiss M1900 Luger from the second DWM batch that had a barrel replacement. It has a mark centered on top of the barrel that I cannot identify, The barrel is properly serialized on the bottom near the rear flange, and the numbers are not perfectly struck. The unidentified mark is similarly imperfectly struck.

I've attached a photograph of the mark. Please let me know if you can identify anything from it.

Thank you again, Marc

Lugerdoc · 03-03-2014, 05:01 PM

The mark on top of your barrel appears to be an Oberndof proof house marking, indicating that the rebarrelling was probably done by Mauser. Th

Grantas · 03-04-2014, 03:19 AM

Am I correct in presuming that this pistol would have been re-barreled in 1952 or after if that mark is an antler. Hard to make it out clearly.

swissdagger · 03-04-2014, 06:52 AM

Hello Marc,
From this Point of view I would say that`s not a stamp.
That are scratches,deep scratches.
Try to make better Pictures ,closer and with different light.
I had the same Problem with a Mauser Pistol.

It Looks like scratches if you have the pistol in your Hands and check the stamp only with your eyes.
I used the macro function on my camera and different light.
The " scratched aera" is a bad stamped tiny eagle with swastika .

Thanks
Stefan

mrerick · 03-04-2014, 09:41 AM

Tom - thanks for a lead on this. I'll look at Constanza and see if he's identified it.

Since the mark is centered on top of the barrel, I expect it to be intended and not an accidental mark. The serial number mark on the bottom barrel flange is made with correct dies, but is also over-stamped at an angle for some of the digits.

This M1900 Luger was imported through CKC, Portsmouth, Ohio (probably sold by FGS Firearms), but I don't know it's history before that. If he imported from Germany, an Oberndorf re-barrel would make sense.

Marc

swissdagger · 03-04-2014, 09:57 AM

That's a swiss barrel,not a german.
If the barrel change was done in Germany,so the Pistol would have german commercial proof marks /stamps.
A barrel change in germany is and was not allowed without a visit in the proof house after the change.

mrerick · 03-04-2014, 12:40 PM

Ah... back to the search! Glad to have confirmation again that it definitely is a Swiss barrel.

Perhaps it's a private Swiss gunsmith's mark?

The stamp resembles the characters "AF" together... or perhaps "AE".

In any case, the job was done properly, and everything is correct about it. Just the curious mark...

Marc

swissdagger · 03-05-2014, 04:38 AM

Hello Marc,
I have here a Commercial P1900 with a replaced Barrel.
This Barrel has the the same reddish Color like yours ( not so easy to see on my Pictures).
Serial number restamped.
No other mark or stamp.

I still believe that on your Barrel is not a stamp.

Thanks
Stefan

mrerick · 03-05-2014, 09:12 AM

Here are the only other marks on the barrel, the stamped serial number.

Also a picture showing the complete barrel profile:

The rear flange is thinner on my barrel than the one on your M1900.

There are no privatization marks on this Luger.

Marc

swissdagger · 03-06-2014, 01:45 AM

You are right.
My Barrel looks like one from a M06/29 WF Luger.
Yours from a earlier M1906 WF Luger.

I would say my M1900 was rebarreled some years later.

The early M06/29 Lugers with the red grips have also such reddish colored Barrels.The Barrels of the later variants are black.
I make some Pictures with different light,so it`s maybe better to see.

02-07-2014, 02:07 PM	#1
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Swiss Rebuild Program Does documentation exist describing the Swiss Luger rebuild program? In particular: - Guidelines describing parts replacement criteria - Modifications (the "U" sight; Improved parts (like the W+F M1900 Extractor) - Refinishing guidelines - A record of specific Luger rebuild including dates / serials / actions taken I've read through Bobba's book, and nothing addresses this aspect of the Swiss arsenal programs. If documentation exists, does anyone have access or contacts? Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-01-2014, 10:01 AM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Stefan, thank you for your information and insight. Where was armory level maintenance (like barrel replacement) done on Swiss military Lugers? Were major maintenance activities on military Lugers performed by private gunsmiths? Do the records of these activities exist, and if so, do you know where? Thanks again, Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-02-2014, 10:57 AM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Stefan, Thank you for this additional information. Believe me, your English is much better than my French or German. I ask because I recently acquired a 1904 vintage Swiss M1900 Luger from the second DWM batch that had a barrel replacement. It has a mark centered on top of the barrel that I cannot identify, The barrel is properly serialized on the bottom near the rear flange, and the numbers are not perfectly struck. The unidentified mark is similarly imperfectly struck. I've attached a photograph of the mark. Please let me know if you can identify anything from it. Thank you again, Marc Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-03-2014, 05:01 PM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The mark on top of your barrel appears to be an Oberndof proof house marking, indicating that the rebarrelling was probably done by Mauser. Th __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-04-2014, 03:19 AM	#7
Grantas Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: New Zealand Posts: 53 Thanks: 268 Thanked 22 Times in 19 Posts	Am I correct in presuming that this pistol would have been re-barreled in 1952 or after if that mark is an antler. Hard to make it out clearly. __________________ LOOKING for Erfurt Takedown lever and sideplate number 44 also DWM Magazine 2823a

03-01-2014, 03:56 AM	#2
swissdagger User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 53 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Marc, I have never heard from such a program. The replacement Extractor for the P1900 ,the ordinance model 1920, was build after too many of the flat DWM Extractors were broken. The "U" shape rear sight was not an armory modification. It was an allowed modification if the owner/shooter believed to get better hits on the Shooting contests. The work was done by gunsmiths,sometimes by the owner himself. Thanks Stefan

03-02-2014, 04:49 AM	#4
swissdagger User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 53 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Marc, my english is not the best sorry. It was allowed only special certified gunsmiths to work on army weapons. Remember ,the swiss soldiers and officers keeps their personal guns at home outside of the active duty and use them on the Shooting ranges. So if any Problem with the weapon,the soldier or officer had not to visit the army Arsenal for a repair. Such a certified gunsmith was able to change barrels or broken parts.He had all the special Tools , stamps and spare parts. But you had to pay for that work. A repair in the Arsenal or during the active duty was normally free. I dont know if it`s still the same today, too many things have changed in the last years.... I have a book with all the certified gunsmiths listed in Switzerland also here are manuals/booklets how a repair was to do and what was not allowed. Thanks Stefan

03-04-2014, 06:52 AM	#8
swissdagger User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 53 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Marc, From this Point of view I would say that`s not a stamp. That are scratches,deep scratches. Try to make better Pictures ,closer and with different light. I had the same Problem with a Mauser Pistol. It Looks like scratches if you have the pistol in your Hands and check the stamp only with your eyes. I used the macro function on my camera and different light. The " scratched aera" is a bad stamped tiny eagle with swastika . Thanks Stefan

03-04-2014, 09:41 AM	#9
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Tom - thanks for a lead on this. I'll look at Constanza and see if he's identified it. Since the mark is centered on top of the barrel, I expect it to be intended and not an accidental mark. The serial number mark on the bottom barrel flange is made with correct dies, but is also over-stamped at an angle for some of the digits. This M1900 Luger was imported through CKC, Portsmouth, Ohio (probably sold by FGS Firearms), but I don't know it's history before that. If he imported from Germany, an Oberndorf re-barrel would make sense. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-04-2014, 09:57 AM	#10
swissdagger User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 53 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts	That's a swiss barrel,not a german. If the barrel change was done in Germany,so the Pistol would have german commercial proof marks /stamps. A barrel change in germany is and was not allowed without a visit in the proof house after the change.

03-04-2014, 12:40 PM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Ah... back to the search! Glad to have confirmation again that it definitely is a Swiss barrel. Perhaps it's a private Swiss gunsmith's mark? The stamp resembles the characters "AF" together... or perhaps "AE". In any case, the job was done properly, and everything is correct about it. Just the curious mark... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-05-2014, 04:38 AM	#12
swissdagger User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 53 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Marc, I have here a Commercial P1900 with a replaced Barrel. This Barrel has the the same reddish Color like yours ( not so easy to see on my Pictures). Serial number restamped. No other mark or stamp. I still believe that on your Barrel is not a stamp. Thanks Stefan

03-05-2014, 09:12 AM	#13
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Here are the only other marks on the barrel, the stamped serial number. Also a picture showing the complete barrel profile: The rear flange is thinner on my barrel than the one on your M1900. There are no privatization marks on this Luger. Marc Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-06-2014, 01:45 AM	#14
swissdagger User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 53 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts	You are right. My Barrel looks like one from a M06/29 WF Luger. Yours from a earlier M1906 WF Luger. I would say my M1900 was rebarreled some years later. The early M06/29 Lugers with the red grips have also such reddish colored Barrels.The Barrels of the later variants are black. I make some Pictures with different light,so it`s maybe better to see. Last edited by swissdagger; 03-06-2014 at 04:44 AM.