Questions about my 1917 DWM Artillery

miner · 09-04-2002, 06:32 PM

Love lugers and have owned several, but still am a novice regarding variants, markings, and such.
I purchased a 1917 DWM Artillery from a **well known and respected dealer** sometime back and have some questions...

1. On the bottom of the barrel near the breech, there is the matching serial no., then beneath that, the 'a', and beneath the a is the number 8,82. What is the significance of the 8,82?

2. On the right-side receiver flat where the proofs are found, it looks as though the original proofs were peened out (slight depressions) and the 4 DWM military proof markings can be seen stamped in the peened depression. What is the history behind this...re-proofed? The bluing is intact within this peened area...how is this possible, since it is original finish?

Thanks in advance.

Johnny Peppers · 09-04-2002, 07:25 PM

The 8,82 is the land diameter of the barrel in millimeters, but have no idea on the peened out stamps.

miner · 09-04-2002, 10:29 PM

Received an emailed explanation from the **well known and respected dealer**...said it was an 'Ordnance Correction'. This is the only example I have ever seen though...

Garfield · 09-05-2002, 12:20 AM

And, quite probably, it will be the last you will see.

Jan C Still · 09-05-2002, 01:27 AM

miner · 09-05-2002, 06:19 AM

Gurgle...gurgle...you guys are starting to make me NERVOUS. Not being very knowlegable on Lugers, I felt it was safe buying from the **well known and respected dealer**. All I can say is the finish looks original to me and is white in the right places...and (here goes [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] ) was advertised as such by the **well known and respected dealer** Pic below...

miner · 09-05-2002, 06:28 AM

Closeup pic...

Doubs · 09-05-2002, 10:56 AM

IMO, the pistol has been in a country where the original inspection & proof marks were obliterated by punching. From what I see in the pictures, the marks look very similar to those found on East German reworks where some stamps were similarly punched. (It's possible that other countries employed the same method to rid guns of their original markings.)

The re-stamping of the Imperial inspection marks is uneven from left to right and I've never seen an Imperial Luger with the original marks that far out of alignment. Also, the fourth stamp, which should be the DWM eagle, is missing. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it's my conclusion that the gun is not original.

Jan C Still · 09-05-2002, 12:05 PM

miner · 09-05-2002, 02:54 PM

Just to keep the info flowing...the 4th proof is there...just doesn't show up in the pic. Awaiting more explanation from the seller...will advise when I know more. Right now I'm headed for the drug store to buy a jug of Maalox...

Doubs · 09-05-2002, 04:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Jan C. Still:
<strong> Doubs I have observed the proofs peened out on Nazi era Lugers (particularly the Nazi emblem) but the proofs were never restamped as on the Luger described by Miner. I have to agree with you that based on the imformation supplied this luger does not appear to be origonal. Perhaps the seller (called a **well known and respected dealer** this morning) can supply additional documentation.
Jan</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's been my experience as well to see Nazi markings peened (punched) far more often than Imperial markings. Nor have I ever seen stamps from either period struck over the peening dimples... until now. I do admit that the term "Ordnance Correction" has my curiosity meter pegged out.

Mr. Miner, I hope you're able to resolve your issues to your satisfaction. Please keep us informed.

wterrell · 09-05-2002, 07:39 PM

[quote] **...said it was an 'Ordnance Correction'. <hr></blockquote>

Miner,

As Jan suggested, you must ask for documentation of another example of this restampiing over peen.

I would also want my shipping charges refunded.

Do the collecting fraternity a favor and post quite a few more photos of this pistol with serial numbers (before you return the pistol).

miner · 09-05-2002, 08:02 PM

Here are some more pics...wish I had a better quality camera. The serial number on the barrel acually looks more crisp than the photo indicates, and to my untrained eye there appears to be a faint halo around the S.N. and suffix a, that is not present around the lands dia. no. BTW, this purchase took place via mailorder about a year ago, so I doubt a request to return is going to be granted. As I stated before, I thought I was dealing with a highly respected dealer and had no concerns about originality. When I received the pistol and noticed the peened/reproof I just assumed it was due to the re-issue (commercial/military) story given prior to sale. At no time during the pre-sale process did the dealer mention the peened area.

miner · 09-05-2002, 08:15 PM

BTW, is there a way to attach (upload) pics directly with the post without using an offsite photo hosting service?

wterrell · 09-05-2002, 08:19 PM

Miner,
Yes. Go to http://www.lugerforum.com/

On the left of this frames page you will see the Upload Photos link. From there is pretty self-explanatory.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 09-05-2002, 11:09 PM

I have not seen a reply from any of the well respected dealers about any of the phony guns they are selling. Since people don"t usually name them they will continue to swindle!!
Lonnie

Garfield · 09-05-2002, 11:53 PM

Lonnie:

The seller of this Artillary was named, however, the Moderators decided to substitute the seller's name with, "well known & respected dealer". Sort of sounds like something one would find written in an obituary. IMHO, whoever added the above appellation needlessly "gilded the lily"; "well known dealer" would have been sufficant.

Edward Tinker · 09-06-2002, 01:09 AM

Since I'm one of those dang moderators, do as I did, read often, write down and copy that information.

For legality I don't blame those dang guys.... I also understand Lonnie and Mr. Garfields feelings.

Oh Garfield, [img]wink.gif[/img] ed

Garfield · 09-06-2002, 02:28 AM

Ed:

I appreciate your candor. You are my favorite moderator. We really must get together for that libation or two, seriously.

With that said, I cannot help but note that the "legal liability" excuse is overworked on this forum and, most certainly, used in a highly selective fashion. To suggest that it is specious would be an understatement. By way of example, very recently one of the members stated that, in his opinion, Randy Bessler (a well known dealer by any measure) had treated him in a shoddy manner and in the member's opinion had, in fact lied to him. Those comments and that dealer's name were not "modified" such as done done on this thread. It would appear to me that "WN&RB" enjoys preferencial treatment. But then, I could well be wrong; perceptions are oftimes merely illusionary.

Edward Tinker · 09-06-2002, 03:50 AM

When a person that is wronged and it is a directly something that happened to them, I have trouble not agreeing 100%. I read the comments and since it was a direct event, left it alone.

so, I cain't tell ya, another persons eyes saw it and thought, ... [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

09-04-2002, 06:32 PM	#1
miner User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KY Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Questions about my 1917 DWM Artillery Love lugers and have owned several, but still am a novice regarding variants, markings, and such. I purchased a 1917 DWM Artillery from a well known and respected dealer sometime back and have some questions... 1. On the bottom of the barrel near the breech, there is the matching serial no., then beneath that, the 'a', and beneath the a is the number 8,82. What is the significance of the 8,82? 2. On the right-side receiver flat where the proofs are found, it looks as though the original proofs were peened out (slight depressions) and the 4 DWM military proof markings can be seen stamped in the peened depression. What is the history behind this...re-proofed? The bluing is intact within this peened area...how is this possible, since it is original finish? Thanks in advance.

09-05-2002, 07:39 PM	#12
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	[quote] ...said it was an 'Ordnance Correction'. <hr></blockquote>** Miner, As Jan suggested, you must ask for documentation of another example of this restampiing over peen. I would also want my shipping charges refunded. Do the collecting fraternity a favor and post quite a few more photos of this pistol with serial numbers (before you return the pistol). __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

09-05-2002, 08:19 PM	#15
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Miner, Yes. Go to http://www.lugerforum.com/ On the left of this frames page you will see the Upload Photos link. From there is pretty self-explanatory. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

09-05-2002, 11:09 PM	#16
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have not seen a reply from any of the well respected dealers about any of the phony guns they are selling. Since people don"t usually name them they will continue to swindle!! Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

09-06-2002, 01:09 AM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Since I'm one of those dang moderators, do as I did, read often, write down and copy that information. For legality I don't blame those dang guys.... I also understand Lonnie and Mr. Garfields feelings. Oh Garfield, [img]wink.gif[/img] ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-04-2002, 07:25 PM	#2
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The 8,82 is the land diameter of the barrel in millimeters, but have no idea on the peened out stamps.

09-04-2002, 10:29 PM	#3
miner User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KY Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Received an emailed explanation from the well known and respected dealer...said it was an 'Ordnance Correction'. This is the only example I have ever seen though...

09-05-2002, 12:20 AM	#4
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	And, quite probably, it will be the last you will see.

09-05-2002, 01:27 AM	#5
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts

09-05-2002, 06:19 AM	#6
miner User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KY Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gurgle...gurgle...you guys are starting to make me NERVOUS. Not being very knowlegable on Lugers, I felt it was safe buying from the well known and respected dealer. All I can say is the finish looks original to me and is white in the right places...and (here goes [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] ) was advertised as such by the well known and respected dealer Pic below...

09-05-2002, 06:28 AM	#7
miner User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KY Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Closeup pic...

09-05-2002, 10:56 AM	#8
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	IMO, the pistol has been in a country where the original inspection & proof marks were obliterated by punching. From what I see in the pictures, the marks look very similar to those found on East German reworks where some stamps were similarly punched. (It's possible that other countries employed the same method to rid guns of their original markings.) The re-stamping of the Imperial inspection marks is uneven from left to right and I've never seen an Imperial Luger with the original marks that far out of alignment. Also, the fourth stamp, which should be the DWM eagle, is missing. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it's my conclusion that the gun is not original.

09-05-2002, 12:05 PM	#9
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts

09-05-2002, 02:54 PM	#10
miner User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KY Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just to keep the info flowing...the 4th proof is there...just doesn't show up in the pic. Awaiting more explanation from the seller...will advise when I know more. Right now I'm headed for the drug store to buy a jug of Maalox...

09-05-2002, 04:30 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Jan C. Still: <strong> Doubs I have observed the proofs peened out on Nazi era Lugers (particularly the Nazi emblem) but the proofs were never restamped as on the Luger described by Miner. I have to agree with you that based on the imformation supplied this luger does not appear to be origonal. Perhaps the seller (called a well known and respected dealer this morning) can supply additional documentation. Jan</strong><hr></blockquote> It's been my experience as well to see Nazi markings peened (punched) far more often than Imperial markings. Nor have I ever seen stamps from either period struck over the peening dimples... until now. I do admit that the term "Ordnance Correction" has my curiosity meter pegged out. Mr. Miner, I hope you're able to resolve your issues to your satisfaction. Please keep us informed.

09-05-2002, 08:02 PM	#13
miner User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KY Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are some more pics...wish I had a better quality camera. The serial number on the barrel acually looks more crisp than the photo indicates, and to my untrained eye there appears to be a faint halo around the S.N. and suffix a, that is not present around the lands dia. no. BTW, this purchase took place via mailorder about a year ago, so I doubt a request to return is going to be granted. As I stated before, I thought I was dealing with a highly respected dealer and had no concerns about originality. When I received the pistol and noticed the peened/reproof I just assumed it was due to the re-issue (commercial/military) story given prior to sale. At no time during the pre-sale process did the dealer mention the peened area.

09-05-2002, 08:15 PM	#14
miner User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KY Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	BTW, is there a way to attach (upload) pics directly with the post without using an offsite photo hosting service?

09-05-2002, 11:53 PM	#17
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Lonnie: The seller of this Artillary was named, however, the Moderators decided to substitute the seller's name with, "well known & respected dealer". Sort of sounds like something one would find written in an obituary. IMHO, whoever added the above appellation needlessly "gilded the lily"; "well known dealer" would have been sufficant.

09-06-2002, 02:28 AM	#19
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed: I appreciate your candor. You are my favorite moderator. We really must get together for that libation or two, seriously. With that said, I cannot help but note that the "legal liability" excuse is overworked on this forum and, most certainly, used in a highly selective fashion. To suggest that it is specious would be an understatement. By way of example, very recently one of the members stated that, in his opinion, Randy Bessler (a well known dealer by any measure) had treated him in a shoddy manner and in the member's opinion had, in fact lied to him. Those comments and that dealer's name were not "modified" such as done done on this thread. It would appear to me that "WN&RB" enjoys preferencial treatment. But then, I could well be wrong; perceptions are oftimes merely illusionary.

09-06-2002, 03:50 AM	#20
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	When a person that is wronged and it is a directly something that happened to them, I have trouble not agreeing 100%. I read the comments and since it was a direct event, left it alone. so, I cain't tell ya, another persons eyes saw it and thought, ... [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV