Lange 08s - Page 2

H.P.Langenbach · 08-17-2003, 07:23 AM

Hi Bob,
thanks for the reply. IÃ?Â´m not an expert in ammo, so IÃ?Â´m not able to verify the figures given in the table. Maybe somebody more experienced can provide detailed info.
Yes, I try to bring back the accuracy to the gun by testing different 9mm ammo. Hope soon I will be able to hit the bulls eye.
regards
Peter

H.P.Langenbach · 08-17-2003, 07:33 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ron Wood:
"Land hunters" is the Babel Fish literal translation of "LandjÃ?Â¤gern", which I believe is what the rural constabulary was called.<hr /></blockquote>Ron
again you are right.
The rural constabulary was called LandjÃ?Â¤ger from 1919 till 1934 when they became part of Himmlers police troops.
regards
Peter

karmast · 08-17-2003, 10:25 AM

To all english-speaking members:

I am again wondering about the good German, some people can speak here!! Gongrats, I would wish my English would be as half as good!!

Sieger · 08-17-2003, 12:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by H.P.Langenbach:
Hi Bob,
thanks for the reply. IÃ?Â´m not an expert in ammo, so IÃ?Â´m not able to verify the figures given in the table. Maybe somebody more experienced can provide detailed info.
Yes, I try to bring back the accuracy to the gun by testing different 9mm ammo. Hope soon I will be able to hit the bulls eye.
regards
Peter<hr /></blockquote>Dear Peter:

Modern ammo is not designed to function properly in a P-08. You will experience poor function and probably poor accuracy with it. If you shoot loads that are too hot, you may even experience damage to the pistol.

If you want perfection of operation and top accuracy, you must load your own to the original specifications. I can help you here. It's really quite easy, once you catch on to the process.

Bob

Sieger · 08-17-2003, 12:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by karmast:
To all english-speaking members:

I am again wondering about the good German, some people can speak here!! Gongrats, I would wish my English would be as half as good!!<hr /></blockquote>Herr Karmast:

Hier gibt es viele gebildete Leute, dass viele Fremdsprachen sprechen koennen!

Bob

George Anderson · 08-17-2003, 01:00 PM

Wasn't the cone shaped bullet phased out with the introduction of the Trommelmagazin or the MP18? I believe I had heard it was due to high capacity feeding problems.

Doubs · 08-17-2003, 01:06 PM

Big Norm, the velocity from an Artillery Luger would show an increase over the standard 100mm (4 inch) barrel. I don't recall the specific velocity but I it to be something over 1100 FPS. The extra length of the Artillery barrel would allow for more complete burning of the powder and better utilization of the pressures.

Doubs · 08-17-2003, 01:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by George Anderson:
Wasn't the cone shaped bullet phased out with the introduction of the Trommelmagazin or the MP18? I believe I had heard it was due to high capacity feeding problems.<hr /></blockquote>It's always been my understanding that it was Allied objections to the bullet design that caused the change from the truncated cone bullet to the round nose design. The Allies claimed that the blunt nose of the TC bullet caused unnecessary damage and suffering....... IOW, it was inhumane. The change took place, I believe, in 1916 so the Trommelmagazin doesn't seem to have been a factor.

George Anderson · 08-17-2003, 05:59 PM

Doubs, I believe the T-mag was adopted in 1916 but didn't hit the street (front) until 1917.

mauro · 08-17-2003, 06:02 PM

Hello guys,
very interesting site. I will contact in the next days the Ã¢??Kuratoriums zur FÃ?Â¶rderung historischer WaffensammlungenÃ¢?Â in order to have some other information. May be we can have an interesting cooperation with Lp08 expert that builds the site (I guess Mr. Finze).

Ron, concerning the use of LP08 by the German war aircraft during WWI you can read at page 23 of my book (last caption of the page):

Ã¢??On the right below, before the popular use of machine-guns on German war aircraft, the Air force used the LP08 for various attacks. As luck would have it, the LP08 with its holster-stock were very effective. A picture Ã¢?Â¦Ã¢?Â

In the note number 10, page 70, I describes some tests performed by Air Force. In particular the air force made two kind of tests: one from an aircraft against a test target with a size of 8 m. Another one to test the effectiveness against aircraft engine, from a distance of 100m.

The best picture available of a pilot that is firing from his aircraft with a LP08 + stock is available on the Gortz book (Die Pistole 08) where are also available a lot of information about LP08 trials.

Ciao

Mauro

Doubs · 08-17-2003, 07:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by George Anderson:
Doubs, I believe the T-mag was adopted in 1916 but didn't hit the street (front) until 1917.<hr /></blockquote>George, if you have any additional information on this I'd be interested in hearing it. If the T-Mag gave problems with the TC bullets, it was likely in the drum portion as the part that fit the magazine well in the Luger should have been the same as a standard mag. At least it seems reasonable to think so. I'd not heard of this before in reference to the TC cartridges.

mauro · 08-18-2003, 08:55 AM

Doubs and George,
as far as I know the TC bullets was modified during 1916 for two main reasons: the Allied propaganda against the TC-bullet because of not conforming with AIA Treaty and also for TM08 feeding problems.
The TM08 was adopted for the LP08 during the 1917 but was already employed for the Mondragon starting from 1915. So it was possible for the Kriegsministerium engineers to know problems related to TM08 feeding with TC bullet before 1916. If you have my book, this problem has been analysed at page 49 and 63.

Ciao

Mauro

Doubs · 08-18-2003, 11:12 PM

Mauro, thank you for some excellent information. I was aware of the Allied objections but not aware of the TM08 feeding problems until George called it to my attention. No matter how much we know about Lugers, there's always something new to keep our interest.

Edward Tinker · 08-19-2003, 12:26 AM

Peter, welcome to the forum,

Ed

Ron Wood · 08-19-2003, 01:03 PM

Mauro,
Thank you for pointing out the caption that I missed on page 23. I need to read more carefully!

I looked through my copy of GÃ?Â¶rtz's "Die Pistole 08" and could not find the picture of the pilot firing a LP08 from an aircraft. Perhaps I have a different edition (1991)? While looking through the book I found a reference to the Pistole 08 being issued to NCOs and ground personnel of "Luftschiffer" and "Fliegertruppen", but no mention of officers or aircrews. In your research have you found that the LP08 was an item of issue to aircraft pilots or crews, or was it a weapon of "opportunity" that was employed when they could obtain them?

karmast · 08-19-2003, 04:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ron Wood:
I looked through my copy of GÃ?Â¶rtz's "Die Pistole 08" and could not find the picture of the pilot firing a LP08 from an aircraft. Perhaps I have a different edition (1991)? <hr /></blockquote>I have the 2000-edition, here you can find the pic on page 153.
A pilot is possing in an "Aviatik"-plane. It is a historic propaganda pic..

Ron Wood · 08-19-2003, 04:38 PM

Matthias,
Thank you. My edition does not have that picture, so I guess I will need to buy a newer one to see if there is any other information I am missing.

mauro · 08-20-2003, 08:36 AM

Ron,
at the beginning of WWI the aircrafts were not armed. The aircrafts were piloted by Cavalry Officers to observe the enemy positions. The aim of this first mission was Ã¢??to observeÃ¢?Â and not fight. In this context both the pilot and the observer were armed with carbines and, when the LP08 was available, with LP08. When necessary the pilot or the observer were able to fire against soldiers or other aircrafts. The LP08 and the carbines were no longer used as soon as it was possible firing with machine-gun installed on the plane.

Ciao

karmast · 08-21-2003, 04:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ron Wood:
Matthias,
Thank you. My edition does not have that picture, so I guess I will need to buy a newer one to see if there is any other information I am missing.<hr /></blockquote>You are welcome! I heard that the newer edition has some additional informations in it, but I can't verify it, because I don't have the older edition.

Ron Wood · 08-21-2003, 05:51 PM

Thank you Mauro, always a pleasure to hear from you and learn something new. I was not aware that the early pilots were drawn from the Cavalry. I guess that with the advent of aircraft into warfare, the pilots had to come from somewhere, and I am sure those young daredevils were happy to swap a horse for an airplane!

08-17-2003, 07:33 AM	#22
H.P.Langenbach User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Ron Wood: <strong>"Land hunters" is the Babel Fish literal translation of "LandjÃ?Â¤gern", which I believe is what the rural constabulary was called.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Ron again you are right. The rural constabulary was called LandjÃ?Â¤ger from 1919 till 1934 when they became part of Himmlers police troops. regards Peter

08-17-2003, 10:25 AM	#23
karmast User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To all english-speaking members: I am again wondering about the good German, some people can speak here!! Gongrats, I would wish my English would be as half as good!! __________________ Every Luger tells a story - but you have to find out what it says..

08-17-2003, 12:40 PM	#24
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by H.P.Langenbach: <strong>Hi Bob, thanks for the reply. IÃ?Â´m not an expert in ammo, so IÃ?Â´m not able to verify the figures given in the table. Maybe somebody more experienced can provide detailed info. Yes, I try to bring back the accuracy to the gun by testing different 9mm ammo. Hope soon I will be able to hit the bulls eye. regards Peter</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Peter: Modern ammo is not designed to function properly in a P-08. You will experience poor function and probably poor accuracy with it. If you shoot loads that are too hot, you may even experience damage to the pistol. If you want perfection of operation and top accuracy, you must load your own to the original specifications. I can help you here. It's really quite easy, once you catch on to the process. Bob

08-17-2003, 12:54 PM	#25
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by karmast: <strong>To all english-speaking members: I am again wondering about the good German, some people can speak here!! Gongrats, I would wish my English would be as half as good!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Herr Karmast: Hier gibt es viele gebildete Leute, dass viele Fremdsprachen sprechen koennen! Bob

08-17-2003, 01:11 PM	#28
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by George Anderson: <strong>Wasn't the cone shaped bullet phased out with the introduction of the Trommelmagazin or the MP18? I believe I had heard it was due to high capacity feeding problems.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">It's always been my understanding that it was Allied objections to the bullet design that caused the change from the truncated cone bullet to the round nose design. The Allies claimed that the blunt nose of the TC bullet caused unnecessary damage and suffering....... IOW, it was inhumane. The change took place, I believe, in 1916 so the Trommelmagazin doesn't seem to have been a factor.

08-17-2003, 07:23 AM	#21
H.P.Langenbach User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Bob, thanks for the reply. IÃ?Â´m not an expert in ammo, so IÃ?Â´m not able to verify the figures given in the table. Maybe somebody more experienced can provide detailed info. Yes, I try to bring back the accuracy to the gun by testing different 9mm ammo. Hope soon I will be able to hit the bulls eye. regards Peter

08-17-2003, 01:00 PM	#26
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Wasn't the cone shaped bullet phased out with the introduction of the Trommelmagazin or the MP18? I believe I had heard it was due to high capacity feeding problems.

08-17-2003, 01:06 PM	#27
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Big Norm, the velocity from an Artillery Luger would show an increase over the standard 100mm (4 inch) barrel. I don't recall the specific velocity but I it to be something over 1100 FPS. The extra length of the Artillery barrel would allow for more complete burning of the powder and better utilization of the pressures.

08-17-2003, 05:59 PM	#29
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Doubs, I believe the T-mag was adopted in 1916 but didn't hit the street (front) until 1917.

08-17-2003, 06:02 PM	#30
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello guys, very interesting site. I will contact in the next days the Ã¢??Kuratoriums zur FÃ?Â¶rderung historischer WaffensammlungenÃ¢?Â in order to have some other information. May be we can have an interesting cooperation with Lp08 expert that builds the site (I guess Mr. Finze). Ron, concerning the use of LP08 by the German war aircraft during WWI you can read at page 23 of my book (last caption of the page): Ã¢??On the right below, before the popular use of machine-guns on German war aircraft, the Air force used the LP08 for various attacks. As luck would have it, the LP08 with its holster-stock were very effective. A picture Ã¢?Â¦Ã¢?Â In the note number 10, page 70, I describes some tests performed by Air Force. In particular the air force made two kind of tests: one from an aircraft against a test target with a size of 8 m. Another one to test the effectiveness against aircraft engine, from a distance of 100m. The best picture available of a pilot that is firing from his aircraft with a LP08 + stock is available on the Gortz book (Die Pistole 08) where are also available a lot of information about LP08 trials. Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

08-17-2003, 07:37 PM	#31
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by George Anderson: <strong>Doubs, I believe the T-mag was adopted in 1916 but didn't hit the street (front) until 1917.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">George, if you have any additional information on this I'd be interested in hearing it. If the T-Mag gave problems with the TC bullets, it was likely in the drum portion as the part that fit the magazine well in the Luger should have been the same as a standard mag. At least it seems reasonable to think so. I'd not heard of this before in reference to the TC cartridges.

08-18-2003, 08:55 AM	#32
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Doubs and George, as far as I know the TC bullets was modified during 1916 for two main reasons: the Allied propaganda against the TC-bullet because of not conforming with AIA Treaty and also for TM08 feeding problems. The TM08 was adopted for the LP08 during the 1917 but was already employed for the Mondragon starting from 1915. So it was possible for the Kriegsministerium engineers to know problems related to TM08 feeding with TC bullet before 1916. If you have my book, this problem has been analysed at page 49 and 63. Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

08-18-2003, 11:12 PM	#33
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Mauro, thank you for some excellent information. I was aware of the Allied objections but not aware of the TM08 feeding problems until George called it to my attention. No matter how much we know about Lugers, there's always something new to keep our interest.

08-19-2003, 12:26 AM	#34
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Peter, welcome to the forum, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-19-2003, 01:03 PM	#35
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Mauro, Thank you for pointing out the caption that I missed on page 23. I need to read more carefully! I looked through my copy of GÃ?Â¶rtz's "Die Pistole 08" and could not find the picture of the pilot firing a LP08 from an aircraft. Perhaps I have a different edition (1991)? While looking through the book I found a reference to the Pistole 08 being issued to NCOs and ground personnel of "Luftschiffer" and "Fliegertruppen", but no mention of officers or aircrews. In your research have you found that the LP08 was an item of issue to aircraft pilots or crews, or was it a weapon of "opportunity" that was employed when they could obtain them? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-19-2003, 04:26 PM	#36
karmast User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Ron Wood: <strong>I looked through my copy of GÃ?Â¶rtz's "Die Pistole 08" and could not find the picture of the pilot firing a LP08 from an aircraft. Perhaps I have a different edition (1991)? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I have the 2000-edition, here you can find the pic on page 153. A pilot is possing in an "Aviatik"-plane. It is a historic propaganda pic.. __________________ Every Luger tells a story - but you have to find out what it says..

08-19-2003, 04:38 PM	#37
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Matthias, Thank you. My edition does not have that picture, so I guess I will need to buy a newer one to see if there is any other information I am missing. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-20-2003, 08:36 AM	#38
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Ron, at the beginning of WWI the aircrafts were not armed. The aircrafts were piloted by Cavalry Officers to observe the enemy positions. The aim of this first mission was Ã¢??to observeÃ¢?Â and not fight. In this context both the pilot and the observer were armed with carbines and, when the LP08 was available, with LP08. When necessary the pilot or the observer were able to fire against soldiers or other aircrafts. The LP08 and the carbines were no longer used as soon as it was possible firing with machine-gun installed on the plane. Ciao __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

08-21-2003, 04:31 PM	#39
karmast User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Ron Wood: <strong>Matthias, Thank you. My edition does not have that picture, so I guess I will need to buy a newer one to see if there is any other information I am missing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">You are welcome! I heard that the newer edition has some additional informations in it, but I can't verify it, because I don't have the older edition. __________________ Every Luger tells a story - but you have to find out what it says..

08-21-2003, 05:51 PM	#40
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Thank you Mauro, always a pleasure to hear from you and learn something new. I was not aware that the early pilots were drawn from the Cavalry. I guess that with the advent of aircraft into warfare, the pilots had to come from somewhere, and I am sure those young daredevils were happy to swap a horse for an airplane! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction