Simson rework on GB.com

DavidJayUden · 05-14-2012, 09:06 AM

I saw this one and thought it might be an interesting topic of discussion.
Have a look:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=285846524

dju

mrerick · 05-14-2012, 09:17 AM

Do I see a faked mix-master before me? Perhaps the Erfurt proof mark on the side plate? The strangely large "58" dies used liberally? The "42" marked (Mauser?) Barrel? The Mauser Hump on the frame? The carefully scrubbed FXO magazine base?

There are so many things (many not visible in the low resolution photos), it has me wondering if they are just trying to recover their parts costs?

Marc

alanint · 05-14-2012, 09:42 AM

Yikes! Enough red flags for me to run away.....

Edward Tinker · 05-14-2012, 09:44 AM

NOT a simson rework

parts gun IMHO that has been force-matched.

GySgt1811 · 05-14-2012, 12:53 PM

"Do I see a faked mix-master before me?"

"Handle towards my hand? Come, let me clutch it. I have thee not, yet I see thee still! What manner of beast, fair or fowl..."

I think Ol' Billie was right!

Heck, even this noob shuddered!

Regards,

John

padredan · 05-14-2012, 01:51 PM

It appears to be one, but of couase they never noticed that?????

DavidJayUden · 05-14-2012, 05:33 PM

Since it is evident that none of us is going to run out and buy it, lets talk.
Now the 58 on the side plate and barrel extension look cheesey, but I see no evidence that the surface has been taken down to remove old numbers AND the finish looks pretty good, sharp edges, although it could be an old re-finish.
The magazine does not show signs of having been taken down to remove previous numbers either. I suppose it could have been an un-numbered armorer's magazine.
The 58 on the hold open looks good enough to pass muster. The 42 on the barrel? I have no idea what gives there.
An obvious concoction of misc. parts, but I'm interested in learning how to spot boosted parts, and so far I'm not seeing much evidence, except that "it don't belong on that gun".
dju

mrerick · 05-14-2012, 08:43 PM

David, it may be the light, but in photo 35, you can just see the ground slightly sharp edges where I think the magazine was scrubbed before being stamped. It's more pronounced on the left side than the right.

The "42" on the barrel would have been Mauser's concealment code.

The size and font of the large "58" stampings do not look like legit dies.

I do wonder if this could have been a DDR rework...

Marc

Edward Tinker · 05-14-2012, 09:52 PM

I wondered about a DDR rework also, but then usually it is more obvious.

I think postwar rebuild, because of the several armorer replacement parts (42 barrel and something else), However, one thing that did make me pause in thinking it might be a DDR was the crossed out number on the toggle and a new number stamped. A 'fake' would not cross out the number, but erase it if adding a new number....

padredan · 05-15-2012, 12:08 AM

ahh, now that makes sense

CJS57 · 05-15-2012, 06:42 AM

The rear frame ears are "humped" so it is a late Mauser frame. The Eagle/N proofs, if real, and the low serial number leads to it being a depot level parts gun with replaced frame put together late in WWII. Who is DDR?

alvin · 05-15-2012, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJS57

Who is DDR?

Deutsche Demokratische Republik. Better known as East Germany.

Edward Tinker · 05-15-2012, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJS57

The rear frame ears are "humped" so it is a late Mauser frame. The Eagle/N proofs, if real, and the low serial number leads to it being a depot level parts gun with replaced frame put together late in WWII. Who is DDR?

WW1 era erfurt sideplate, WW1 1914 dated upper, eagle 63 on front of gripstrap (why?), makes me wonder about any sort of depot rebuild - why would ww1 parts be laying around - ANYTHING is possible, and if someone wants to go down the route of put-together at an depot or repair facility, that is possible, but then would it have been 'proofed"?

padredan · 05-15-2012, 10:19 AM

There you have it from someone who knows.

the 2k asking price maybe a bit much, you think ?

CJS57 · 05-15-2012, 08:48 PM

Sure, I agree, I was just speculating, but it seems like a modern faker, if they had such nice proof stamps and parts available to them, then they also would have more knowledge than to create such an odd gun!

05-14-2012, 09:06 AM	#1
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Simson rework on GB.com I saw this one and thought it might be an interesting topic of discussion. Have a look: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=285846524 dju

05-14-2012, 09:17 AM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	Do I see a faked mix-master before me? Perhaps the Erfurt proof mark on the side plate? The strangely large "58" dies used liberally? The "42" marked (Mauser?) Barrel? The Mauser Hump on the frame? The carefully scrubbed FXO magazine base? There are so many things (many not visible in the low resolution photos), it has me wondering if they are just trying to recover their parts costs? Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-14-2012, 01:51 PM	#6
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	It appears to be one, but of couase they never noticed that????? __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

05-14-2012, 08:43 PM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	David, it may be the light, but in photo 35, you can just see the ground slightly sharp edges where I think the magazine was scrubbed before being stamped. It's more pronounced on the left side than the right. The "42" on the barrel would have been Mauser's concealment code. The size and font of the large "58" stampings do not look like legit dies. I do wonder if this could have been a DDR rework... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-14-2012, 09:52 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	I wondered about a DDR rework also, but then usually it is more obvious. I think postwar rebuild, because of the several armorer replacement parts (42 barrel and something else), However, one thing that did make me pause in thinking it might be a DDR was the crossed out number on the toggle and a new number stamped. A 'fake' would not cross out the number, but erase it if adding a new number.... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-14-2012, 09:42 AM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Yikes! Enough red flags for me to run away.....

05-14-2012, 09:44 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	NOT a simson rework parts gun IMHO that has been force-matched.

05-14-2012, 12:53 PM	#5
GySgt1811 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Southern Indiana Posts: 237 Thanks: 1,238 Thanked 126 Times in 84 Posts	"Do I see a faked mix-master before me?" "Handle towards my hand? Come, let me clutch it. I have thee not, yet I see thee still! What manner of beast, fair or fowl..." I think Ol' Billie was right! Heck, even this noob shuddered! Regards, John

05-14-2012, 05:33 PM	#7
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Since it is evident that none of us is going to run out and buy it, lets talk. Now the 58 on the side plate and barrel extension look cheesey, but I see no evidence that the surface has been taken down to remove old numbers AND the finish looks pretty good, sharp edges, although it could be an old re-finish. The magazine does not show signs of having been taken down to remove previous numbers either. I suppose it could have been an un-numbered armorer's magazine. The 58 on the hold open looks good enough to pass muster. The 42 on the barrel? I have no idea what gives there. An obvious concoction of misc. parts, but I'm interested in learning how to spot boosted parts, and so far I'm not seeing much evidence, except that "it don't belong on that gun". dju

05-15-2012, 12:08 AM	#10
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	ahh, now that makes sense __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

05-15-2012, 06:42 AM	#11
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	The rear frame ears are "humped" so it is a late Mauser frame. The Eagle/N proofs, if real, and the low serial number leads to it being a depot level parts gun with replaced frame put together late in WWII. Who is DDR?

05-15-2012, 10:19 AM	#14
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	There you have it from someone who knows. the 2k asking price maybe a bit much, you think ? __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

05-15-2012, 08:48 PM	#15
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	Sure, I agree, I was just speculating, but it seems like a modern faker, if they had such nice proof stamps and parts available to them, then they also would have more knowledge than to create such an odd gun!