The Ethics of Gun Sales

[guy sajer]

Short of that, I would appreciate some feedback from my fellow collectors as to the right thing to do under the circumstances.

This has been festering for over a year . The RM market is stronger than ever from what I can see . Recommend selling it and moving forward .

[lugerholsterrepair]

You guys are stuck on a very serious charge..Fraud. I have seen no proof of that charge and for that matter not even a reasonable argument to support a hint of it.
In my opinion the argument presented by Michael has become academic at best.
If you cannot convince people who are on your side..what hope is there to convince a third party?
I would be very carefull with the printed word. David Carroll already HAS a lawyer. He might be itching for some billable hours...

Jerry Burney

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally posted by Tomathvl
Michael,
To sum this up, I can't get past the fact that you say the gun as delivered was/is 100% mechanically sound and that was your main criterion for buying the piece. You obviously noticed the bluing damage when you received the gun and that didn't deter you from keeping the gun. So IMHO you received what you wanted and there is no fraud involved.
The possibility that the gun may have been damaged and repaired is a situation open to debate as to whether the seller should have mentioned it to you. If you stressed the importance of 100% mechanical correctness and the gun is 100% then I'm not sure that it matters that at some time it may not have been. Without a transcript of who said what to whom and when it was said it's difficult to take a position. If I were the seller I would have explained what caused the obvious bluing damage, if I knew the cause, e.g. the widget or whatever was damaged and was replaced and it's not a numbered part and the gun is 100% mechanically correct. However, I attempt to be totally honest with folks because that's what I want from them but don't always succeed in getting.
From what you have related to the forum regarding the purchase, I don't think you have a case to go forward with but, different strokes......
Seems that your Samuel beckett may apply to the situation.
Tom

I did not say that the gun as delivered was/is 100% mechanically sound. I did say that at present the cylinder edge rotates free of the frame at all times, the action is completely within factory spec, and all chambers align with the bore at lockup. Since the yoke matches the frame in tight fit and correct number, and there are neither marks nor records of factory rework, the gun must have been repaired by an independent gunsmith who most likely would have straightened its original yoke instead of replacing it. I do not consider such repair to result in complete mechanical soundness.

Originally posted by lugerholsterrepair
You guys are stuck on a very serious charge..Fraud. I have seen no proof of that charge and for that matter not even a reasonable argument to support a hint of it.
In my opinion the argument presented by Michael has become academic at best.
If you cannot convince people who are on your side..what hope is there to convince a third party?
I would be very carefull with the printed word. David Carroll already HAS a lawyer. He might be itching for some billable hours...

Jerry Burney

One possible predicate for fraud is a material misrepresentation made as an expression of opinion that is false, by one claiming or implying to have special knowledge of the subject matter of the opinion. In the matter at hand, David Carroll satisfies the conditions for having special knowledge, as knowledge or information superior to that possessed by the buyer, and to which the buyer does not have equal access. The sole remaining condition turns on whether or not a gun that suffered structural damage that was subsequently repaired could be accurately described as 100% mechanically sound. For my part, I would not so describe any mechanical device that has had its critical steel component straightened after being deformed out of spec. Hence my example of a shotgun that underwent repair of a barrel bulge.

[Ron Wood]

I have decided to delete what I just now posted here...I don't have a dog in this fight.

[Edward Tinker]

yes, I agree Ron, this is past "asking for our opinions" and going to no where....

[alvin]

The subject can be viewed from another angle. I understand the frustration on this COLT, Michael probably lost some $$ (guesstimation, I know nothing about COLT). According to a Yahoo story that I just read a few minutes ago, if $1000 was put into Fannie Mae, it's $2-$3 now, if $1000 was put into AIG, it's now $15. It's **very very lucky** that $5000 was not 'invested' into those. Regardless of whatsoever, this COLT performs way better.

[policeluger]

It's a S&W......not a colt.

[Ronald Welch]

Michael
I know what you must feel,I did something just as stupid I sent a luger to a so called luger restorer to be reblued along with payment and return shipping money and that was in 2006 and still waiting. So do like I did eat the loss and learn from the mistake.
Ron Welch

[Michael Zeleny]

I had had this revolver examined for mechanical fit and function by Peter Stefansky, a professional gunsmith and President at Bain & Davis Inc., a gun shop located at 307 East Valley Blvd in San Gabriel, CA 91776-3522. Mr Stefansky has observed its cylinder making contact with its frame when its yoke is swung out. He has observed damage on the frame of this revolver, at the places where the cylinder makes contact with it. He was unable to find any marks of damage or abuse on the frame, yoke, or cylinder of this revolver. Mr Stefansky has also examined Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolvers, Serial Number 50188, Registration 1829, and Serial Number 60220, no Registration number, for comparison of their mechanical fit and function. In both of these revolvers the cylinder rotates free of the frame with the yoke open. In his opinion, the observed interference between the cylinder and the frame of Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, Serial Number 47449, Registration 843, is due to a manufacturing defect. I will produce a copy of Mr Stefanskyâ??s sworn declaration to this effect on request.

I have listed this gun on Gunbroker.com with a full disclosure of its condition and provenance. As President of CADA, David Carroll deserves all the publicity he can get.