Heartbreaker

George Anderson · 11-16-2003, 10:01 AM

I spent Friday and Saturday at the Richmond gun show...bought and sold lots.

A long time friend and very sharp collector told me of a beautiful 1917 Navy he had scored. I looked at it at the show; it was stunning in appearance including the "floating crowns" and standard P08 axel pin.

Its'a jungle out there.

Doubs · 11-16-2003, 12:36 PM

Is there any chance he can recover his money by returning the pistol? How did you break the bad news to your friend without upsetting him? A bad situation and I hope he has some recourse to set things right.

Luke · 11-16-2003, 01:30 PM

George -

Having purchased by mail (AND RETURNED)two such "Navy" Lugers, I can understand. Hope your friend can get his money back.

Were you able to record the serial number?

I wonder if it would be possible to start a database on this Forum of known fake Navy Lugers? Legal problems? If it is not a legal problem, such a list would be a great service to those who are less than expert on this subject.

Luke

Navy · 11-16-2003, 01:52 PM

All,

As I have mentioned many times on this forum, this Navy Loogie stuff is a high stakes game. It ain't for the ignorant or arrogant or indigent. Every time I buy one I assume it is bad until convinced otherwise by a detailed disassembly and thorough, methodical examination. Occasionally I even seek other's opinions if I have doubts but am uncertain.

For this reason, I seldom buy at shows (Ever notice the fine print in many dealer's T's&C's in their ads "All show sales are final")unless I know the dealer personally and have an asurance of right of return after examination.

After all, tired old eyes, poor show lighting and the jostling of a crowd are not condusive to making a good several thousand dollar bet..at least not in my book.

Tom A.

Edward Tinker · 11-16-2003, 02:06 PM

Luke, I can't speak for John D., but would imagine a known list of serial numbers would be fine, but then the "fake" ones would be the sticking point. As people get really excited when you "know" that one is fake and list it. As an example, imagine you have a navy serial number, then two years pass and now it is in my collection and I see it listed for all the world to see as a "fake".

On the other hand, if someone publishes a book with known serial numbers and description and an asterik stating these are the "only" accepted navies, well that might work, create a stir, but might work?

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 11-16-2003, 02:36 PM

Having seen quite a few "not legit" lugers at the Reno gun show this past weekend, I am reminded about this fact...

Most of these guns will be sold to folks that have never heard of the Luger Forum, Jan Still's excellent forum, NACPA, etc...

I am sure this is the market targeted and why such lugers are on the tables...

As Mike Jones posted awhile back; some gunshow buyers just want to buy one luger for their collection and may never well know until much later...if at all...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Luke · 11-16-2003, 02:51 PM

Yes, Ed. I'm sure you are right. I would just wish there were some method for running these bogus Navy Lugers off the market.

Pete, I suspect that your identification of the target market is correct.

I think that selling these "Navy" Lugers would be acceptable if they were offered as shooters at an appropriate price. I'll wager that many of us might buy one of them as a 6" target Luger if they were identified as such and priced as such.

But, to offer, at a premium price, such a bogus Navy *Made in the USA in the 1990s* as an authentic gun is both immoral and criminal IMHO.

Luke

Edward Tinker · 11-16-2003, 03:10 PM

Yes Luke, I agree, as a shooter they would be fun. To "trick" or sell any item as authentic, when it is a forgery is criminal, let alone immoral, wrong and a shame for the collecting world.

Ed

George Anderson · 11-16-2003, 03:34 PM

The victim is a long time collector of WWII handguns and quite the expert in this area. He has a good solid background with WWI military German arms but, I think, only a passing knowledge of Reichsmarine stuff.

I believe he was the second victim as he bought it from a person that he had known to be a savvy collector. I feel that they may both have been screwed versus one a screw-ee and the other a screw-er.

My thoughts are that the PERP resides quite some distance from the faire Old Dominion. Perhaps in a place where they have no winter.

Navy · 11-16-2003, 04:05 PM

George,

Does the suspected perp reside perhaps in the Jacksonville, FL environs?

Tom A.

George Anderson · 11-16-2003, 06:38 PM

Tom, i aint sure...my thoughts move west. I will, however, dig deeper. george

Luke · 11-16-2003, 07:12 PM

George =

The "manufacturer" might have been in FL or MN, but the "retailer" was probably further west.

Luke

Pete Ebbink · 11-16-2003, 11:26 PM

The 2nd. part of this rotten fish story is what will the current owner of this bogus Navy do with the gun if he/she has no recourse with the previous seller...and it sounds like there is no recourse, since two folks got taken in a row...

Does this person :1) bite the bullet and keep the gun as a lessons learned piece, 2) discount the gun and sell it as a facsimilie Navy, or 3) does this person pass off the piece to the next unsuspecting buyer and try to recoup their money...???

Even in scenarios # 1 and # 2 above, which are the honorable things to do; there is no guarantee when this piece is sold the next time it is not represented, again, as an honest Navy...

What a quandry...

If that were my choice, I think I would engrave the "bogus" status of the piece on the grip strap underneath the wooden grip panels (maybe with the suspected maker's name...

), enjoy my gun as an over-priced shooter, and eventually sell it again to another shooter...with all info. disclosed...of course...waiting long enough for shooter prices to rise to my original buy level...(wishful thinking...).

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-16-2003, 10:01 AM	#1
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Heartbreaker I spent Friday and Saturday at the Richmond gun show...bought and sold lots. A long time friend and very sharp collector told me of a beautiful 1917 Navy he had scored. I looked at it at the show; it was stunning in appearance including the "floating crowns" and standard P08 axel pin. Its'a jungle out there.

11-16-2003, 01:30 PM	#3
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	George - Having purchased by mail (AND RETURNED)two such "Navy" Lugers, I can understand. Hope your friend can get his money back. Were you able to record the serial number? I wonder if it would be possible to start a database on this Forum of known fake Navy Lugers? Legal problems? If it is not a legal problem, such a list would be a great service to those who are less than expert on this subject. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

11-16-2003, 02:06 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Luke, I can't speak for John D., but would imagine a known list of serial numbers would be fine, but then the "fake" ones would be the sticking point. As people get really excited when you "know" that one is fake and list it. As an example, imagine you have a navy serial number, then two years pass and now it is in my collection and I see it listed for all the world to see as a "fake". On the other hand, if someone publishes a book with known serial numbers and description and an asterik stating these are the "only" accepted navies, well that might work, create a stir, but might work? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-16-2003, 02:51 PM	#7
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Yes, Ed. I'm sure you are right. I would just wish there were some method for running these bogus Navy Lugers off the market. Pete, I suspect that your identification of the target market is correct. I think that selling these "Navy" Lugers would be acceptable if they were offered as shooters at an appropriate price. I'll wager that many of us might buy one of them as a 6" target Luger if they were identified as such and priced as such. But, to offer, at a premium price, such a bogus Navy Made in the USA in the 1990s as an authentic gun is both immoral and criminal IMHO. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

11-16-2003, 03:10 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Yes Luke, I agree, as a shooter they would be fun. To "trick" or sell any item as authentic, when it is a forgery is criminal, let alone immoral, wrong and a shame for the collecting world. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-16-2003, 12:36 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	Is there any chance he can recover his money by returning the pistol? How did you break the bad news to your friend without upsetting him? A bad situation and I hope he has some recourse to set things right.

11-16-2003, 01:52 PM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, As I have mentioned many times on this forum, this Navy Loogie stuff is a high stakes game. It ain't for the ignorant or arrogant or indigent. Every time I buy one I assume it is bad until convinced otherwise by a detailed disassembly and thorough, methodical examination. Occasionally I even seek other's opinions if I have doubts but am uncertain. For this reason, I seldom buy at shows (Ever notice the fine print in many dealer's T's&C's in their ads "All show sales are final")unless I know the dealer personally and have an asurance of right of return after examination. After all, tired old eyes, poor show lighting and the jostling of a crowd are not condusive to making a good several thousand dollar bet..at least not in my book. Tom A.

11-16-2003, 02:36 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Having seen quite a few "not legit" lugers at the Reno gun show this past weekend, I am reminded about this fact... Most of these guns will be sold to folks that have never heard of the Luger Forum, Jan Still's excellent forum, NACPA, etc... I am sure this is the market targeted and why such lugers are on the tables... As Mike Jones posted awhile back; some gunshow buyers just want to buy one luger for their collection and may never well know until much later...if at all... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-16-2003, 03:34 PM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	The victim is a long time collector of WWII handguns and quite the expert in this area. He has a good solid background with WWI military German arms but, I think, only a passing knowledge of Reichsmarine stuff. I believe he was the second victim as he bought it from a person that he had known to be a savvy collector. I feel that they may both have been screwed versus one a screw-ee and the other a screw-er. My thoughts are that the PERP resides quite some distance from the faire Old Dominion. Perhaps in a place where they have no winter.

11-16-2003, 04:05 PM	#10
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	George, Does the suspected perp reside perhaps in the Jacksonville, FL environs? Tom A.

11-16-2003, 06:38 PM	#11
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Tom, i aint sure...my thoughts move west. I will, however, dig deeper. george

11-16-2003, 07:12 PM	#12
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	George = The "manufacturer" might have been in FL or MN, but the "retailer" was probably further west. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

11-16-2003, 11:26 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	The 2nd. part of this rotten fish story is what will the current owner of this bogus Navy do with the gun if he/she has no recourse with the previous seller...and it sounds like there is no recourse, since two folks got taken in a row... Does this person :1) bite the bullet and keep the gun as a lessons learned piece, 2) discount the gun and sell it as a facsimilie Navy, or 3) does this person pass off the piece to the next unsuspecting buyer and try to recoup their money...??? Even in scenarios # 1 and # 2 above, which are the honorable things to do; there is no guarantee when this piece is sold the next time it is not represented, again, as an honest Navy... What a quandry... If that were my choice, I think I would engrave the "bogus" status of the piece on the grip strap underneath the wooden grip panels (maybe with the suspected maker's name... ), enjoy my gun as an over-priced shooter, and eventually sell it again to another shooter...with all info. disclosed...of course...waiting long enough for shooter prices to rise to my original buy level...(wishful thinking...). Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />