Help with a DWM 1923 Commercial

[cmdinphx]

I thought I would solicit the advice of those far wiser and more experienced than I in the case of a DWM 1923 Commercial luger. I have not seen it yet, but the seller says all numbers match, except mags, and the pistol comes with 2 mags, an aftermarket holster, and 250 rounds of Win ammo (I assume 30 Luger), all for $900.
While it looks like an untouched original 1923 Commercial, I am not experienced enough to know if it actually is what he says it is.
Thank you for your comments.
Here are some pictures...
Chris

[alanint]

It looks all correct to me, (although I would have been happier with a toggle axle retaining pin that was more clearly in the white). The barrel halos look ok, albeit a bit large.

At $900 for the package, I think it is on the high side of a fair deal.

[SteveM]

It is a alphabet commercial as evidenced by the serial number.

[DavidJayUden]

Looks like an honest deal to me, not a steal but you're not getting hurt either. 250 rounds helps, and it will be interesting to see the holster. There are commercial holsters and there are commercial holsters...
I want you to confirm upon receipt that the toggle is closing down all the way, because the joint just behind the toggle knob, ALMOST looks like it is riding a bit high. But I don't have one in front of me so they could all be like that.
\Also, is the grip chipped or cracked behind the safety lever?
Anyway, I think that you done fine. Shoot it and have fun!
dju

[John Sabato]

Gentlemen,

I hate to cause a stir, but please revisit the barrel serial number.

It appears that it may have been pantographed instead of stamped, and especially the first digit which appears to these old eyes to be over the top of another number, perhaps a "1"?

All in all I would say a fair price for a shooter, with accessories, but a collectible Alphabet Commercial? I would have to reserve that opinion until I see much better photos, or perform a jeweler's loupe inspection of the barrel serial number.

[hayhugh]

Were only some of the DWM 1923 commercial stamped with the "lock and loaded" markings? I have a DWM numbered 86427, but doesn't have the lock or loaded only the normal German markings.

[DavidJayUden]

OK John, while you may not have meant to stir the pot...
Chris, could you do some more photos of the serial number on the underside of the barrel AND of the numbers on the front of the frame?
I still feel that you are doing well price-wise, but we need to revisit the numbers. Just because that is what we do here...
dju

[Ben M.]

blue on barrel seems much stronger than other parts of gun. john's comment abut the barrel numbers might make sense if a barrel was replaced and renumbered to the gun.

[alanint]

They look properly stamped and correct to me, but better close-ups would help settle it.

[cmdinphx]

Thanks guys. Good catch, John; I'll get more pictures of the barrel (from a different angle) and the front of the frame. Also a closeup of the left grip - it does look like a chip or repair mark by the safety. You're right David, it appears that the joint behind the toggle isn't sitting flush with the surrounding metal. I'll get a holster photo as well.
Chris

[rhuff]

At the current price for Winchester 30 Luger ammo, that is $250 worth of ammo. Those halos look overly large to me also.

[cmdinphx]

I'm heading out there tomorrow to see it. I'll check the barrel out CAREFULLY... Assuming that there is a replacement barrel on it, and that it may possibly have aftermarket grips, it would clearly be a shooter, as opposed to a low end collector. At $900, even with the ammo and holster included, it seems a little pricey. Would $700-750 be a more reasonable price for a shooter?
Thanks.
Chris

[cmdinphx]

John,
What's "pantographed"? In looking a little more carefully at the serial number, the "6" seems to have been stamped over another number, possibly a "7". On the bright side, that pistol (1467n) is listed in Dwight's Commercial Database, v5, with no comments.
Thanks.
Chris

[ithacaartist]

A pantograph is a machine that follows the motion of a tip, which is guide, around the number or character used as an example, with another tip that is more of an engraver or cutter. This transfers a more or less exact copy of the original to the receiving part where the number is desired. If examined under magnification, one can tell the difference between a character created this way versus one that has been stamped into the material with a die and hammer strike.

I'm on the bandwagon of saying the halos on the barrel look suspect, as if they had been carefully dabbed with bluing remover to be created. The authentic effect is a result of the physical things that go on when steel is struck with a die. The metal immediately surrounding the mark is compressed, and a certain amount of metal is displaced, raised around the edges of the mark. If stamped after being rust blued, as a barrel properly would have been, the bluing itself, which is actually rust, is affected. The oxide that comprises bluing is hard, and shifting the material it coats affects it. The trauma causes some of it to lose its grip, to fall away, revealing the lighter steel below. The closer to ground zero of the strike, the greater the compression/displacement of underlying material. This creates a gradient effect, and the halo will be brightest right around the mark and fade away as undisturbed steel is approached. These halos are rather uniform in transparency, and end abruptly. Get out your 10X loupe when you have the pistol in hand, and you'll see what's what.

The retaining pin atop the left toggle knob looks suspiciously dark, and I agree with Doug's observation. Theoretically the exposed end of the pin should be unfinished--"in the white". A pistol that has been re-blued when the toggle links have been left assembled often has a retaining pin which was re-blued right along with the rest of the assembly. There's plenty of vintage red rust showing in the finish near its location, so the pin's end may look dark because of simple corrosion on the raw steel. The better refinishing jobs entail dis-assembly of the joint, and setting the pin aside so it remains properly unfinished. A booster may carefully remove the blue on the pin, to make a refinished pistol appear original. Another job for the loupe...

Worst case scenario, you still did just fine at this package price! Take that Win ammo and see how she does. If you can, save the brass, which is relatively scarce. You can reload it yourself, of sell it to someone who does--there are plenty on this forum! And if the holster turns out to be original, you did even better.

[DavidJayUden]

Oh for Heaven's sake, this is a .30 Commercial Luger, not the Mona Lisa, and the thought that some booster is going to spend their time faking a halo is, to me at least, laughable.
This is exactly why I don't pay for markings. Buy the gun and ammo if the price is right, and leave the hand-wringing to others.
dju

[cmdinphx]

Thanks for the info ithacaartist; I will look carefully at that barrel serial number. David, good point about over-analyzing a prospective purchase. It is easy to do... I am hoping that the barrel is original, and that this can be a low end collector pistol.
Chris

[DavidJayUden]

Chris:
There is no magic line that determines a collectable from a shooter. What one collector turns their nose up at another collector has lusted after for years.
Your Luger is a piece of history. Enjoy it as you wish, and once you are done with it move on. Lugers come, and Lugers go...
dju

[sheepherder]

I would agree that the 'haloes' look suspect, but a pantograph engraving tool uses a rotating cutting tip, which leaves rounded ends. The '4' and the cursive 'n' look OK to me. I also think the C/N would show signs of a mismatched finish/'level' to the surrounding area, and it doesn't.

It could be a beginning mechanic. Or just a tired old handgun.

250 rds of ammunition is only ~$100 at Midway's prices [Finocchi]. They still had it in stock a week ago.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Oh for Heaven's sake, this is a .30 Commercial Luger, not the Mona Lisa, and the thought that some booster is going to spend their time faking a halo is, to me at least, laughable.
This is exactly why I don't pay for markings. Buy the gun and ammo if the price is right, and leave the hand-wringing to others.
dju

I generally agree. We're talking a couple hundred bucks' difference--not worth the trouble to an enhancer of higher-end stuff. But it might be within reason for someone who knows just enough and wants to give it a little lift in perceived value, so I wouldn't rule it out absolutely.

[Sergio Natali]

quote
" Oh for Heaven's sake, this is a .30 Commercial Luger, not the Mona Lisa, and the thought that some booster is going to spend their time faking a halo is, to me at least, laughable.
This is exactly why I don't pay for markings. Buy the gun and ammo if the price is right, and leave the hand-wringing to others.
dju"
unquote

David
your lines made me laugh, and you're probaby right, but this forum is instructing also for all these interesting posts.

Sergio