A tired old Soldier…

ieyres · 12-08-2009, 01:31 PM

Hope this is an OK post to start (it’s my first on here so please be kind…)

I recently brought this “relic” Luger having seen it for sale a couple of times during this year at some of the UK militaria fairs. The price was consistent with other relic Lugers I have seen over the last few years; however it has “a story” to go along with it, which has some local connections to where I live in the UK….

As a bit of a teaser it was used in both WW1 and WW2.

After all this time the toggle still moves back and the trigger still works the firing pin. It’s been deactivated to the current UK specifications (hence the odd 2006 London proof marks)

I’m keen to find out some basic info about the gun itself. Apart from knowing it’s a 1918 Erfurt I’m pretty much in the dark, the pitting makes it difficult to look for the remnants of proof marks etc when your not sure where to look. Many of the key areas are pretty much gone.

Interestingly it has a circle S mark on the front left of the frame in front of the serial number (3623Q ?) and the remnants of a different number on the rear of the frame (179?) that doesn’t match the remainder of the gun. The side plate is numbered ?9
The barrel seems not to be numbered (period replacement or perhaps just too pitted to be visible)

Any help you guys can give would be greatly appreciated & if anyone’s interested I’ll post up the story. Just hope I can master the picture upload……

Thanks

Iain

Ice · 12-08-2009, 02:19 PM

Welcome to the forum. Your Luger is a piece of history that you can hold in your hand. I think it would look great mounted in a shadow box with its printed history beneath it. I believe that 1918 was the last year Erfurt made Lugers and I would be interested in hearing its story.

Charlie

Vlim · 12-08-2009, 02:33 PM

It also has the cut for a magazine safety in the frame, suggesting it went into police service somewhere after 1918.

179 is probably its police rack or gun number.

Norme · 12-08-2009, 02:33 PM

Hi Iain, Your Erfurt was modified after WWI for police use (you can see the notch in the left frame for the magazine safety). Apart from that, it looks like it has spent some time in salt water - but I am sure that's part of the story! Regards, Norm

alanint · 12-08-2009, 02:36 PM

I'm guessing a backyard garden or shed..

ieyres · 12-08-2009, 03:19 PM

Hi all, thanks for that – please keep it coming ...

I was wondering what that cut in the frame was. Is the Circle S mark proof of a rework of some sort?

A shadow box is on the plan, I have an old 1940's Dinky toy to go in there as well (see picture)

Anyway as promised, here’s the story – lots of blanks, but I’m still researching & have yet to talk to a couple of the people involved……

Rewind back to 1940, France has fallen and The Battle of Britain is at its height, The Luftwaffe is now targeting British fighter stations in its attempt to clear the skies for the planned invasion. Messerschmitt 110 heavy fighters from the 1 Staffel / Zerstoerergeschwader 2 take off from their base in France to escort bombers to an attack on RAF North Weald……..

“German Aircraft loss reported for 2 German Messerschmitt Bf 110's collided at 10.50 on Tuesday 3rd September 1940, both from 1 Staffel / Zerstoerergeschwader 2

BF 110C-4 (2065) Code 3M+EK flown by Fw. Wagenbrett - crashed at Hobbs Cross, Harlow, Essex
BF110C-4 (2133) Code 3M+HL flown by Oblt. Mueller - crashed at Rye Hill, Essex ”
The aircraft were involved with one of the largest attacks on North Weald Fighter station during the Battle of Britain.

source book: The Battle of Britain than and now

Oblt. Mueller bailed out and survived the collision, but the remaining 3 aircrew involved perished. A picture of Mueller’s crashed 110 is visible on the web site listed below. Unfortunately I have not yet found a picture of 3M+EK

http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety...9/mueller.html

This Luger was one of a pair “liberated” from the Wagenbrett / Schubert crash by one of the first people to arrive on the scene, presumably for possible use in the event of the threatened invasion. Interfering with a crash sight was illegal with the authorities at that time, so the pair of guns were buried in his back garden and over time forgotten about.
Many years later (approximately 2005) they were found by the relative of the guy that originally removed them.
He decided to pass them on to a registered firearms dealer & after UK deactivation and a long story one of them has ended up with me.
I believe when it was first sold it had the remnants of the grips and the magazine, however since 2005 these have disappeared. There are still some holes that need to be filled in on the story

I live in Essex, not far from North Weald airfield and have always had a fascination with the Battle of Britain. This Luger to me is a very strong reminder of the enormous struggle that occurred in our skies during those days.

Every time I look at it I can’t help but feel respect and a degree of sadness for all the people on both sides who gave their lives in the conflict.

September the 3rd 2010 is the 70th anniversary of this small event in history, it would be right to pay my respects in someway either at the grave side if they can be found, or at the sight of the crash.

Hope that’s of interest to some people, one of the few advantages of living in the crowded south east of England is that WW2 history is very accessible here.

Thanks again for what ever info you can give.

ieyres · 12-08-2009, 03:22 PM

Next picture

Norme · 12-08-2009, 03:33 PM

Hi Iain, Great story! You're quite right, the circle S is believed to be a police rework mark. I still have memories of the "Battle of Britain" and the sounds of VI rockets some time later, as a small boy growing up in London. Regards, Norm

Ice · 12-08-2009, 05:27 PM

Great story. Thanks and good wishes.

Charlie

heers68 · 12-08-2009, 06:13 PM

Wonderful and well done trip through history!! Good show! I wonder if Herr Mueller is still alive? Do you know where the other Luger is? What was its condition? Shame they cant stay together since they went down together. Kevin.

suum cuique · 12-08-2009, 06:13 PM

Iain,
welcome to the forum.
It's quite interesting, behind any Luger is a nice story to tell.

Don M · 12-08-2009, 06:14 PM

Fascinating story! Dwight Gruber has been researching the Circled-S markings and this thread will give you some background - http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13170. The front grip strap is pretty much gone but I would not be surprised if it once had the marking Ma.179. Unfortunately, I don't know what this means either.

sheepherder · 12-08-2009, 06:33 PM

Great story! I love to hear the anecdotes behind the equipment..."Everyone has a story"...

Since you said the toggle still works, I trust you verified the chamber was empty???

There was an unfortunate accident here in the Colonies some years back involving some boys who found an old rusted .22 automatic and attempted to free up the action, not knowing there was still a live round in the chamber...

apis mellifera · 12-08-2009, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SARCO

Found a few more in the warehouse - original P08 Lugers. Bore is a little dark, but should clean up nicely. Finish is 90-95%. $995.00

...

Lugerdoc · 12-08-2009, 08:13 PM

It's difficult to believe that a Weimar marked Police pistol made it to a LW aircraft. Most bomber crews were issued non-German made pistols (CZ27s, Femarus, etc) based on the belief that if they were shot down, most crews wouldn't live to take about it, and if they did, they probaly wouldn't be able to make it back to the Fatherland. Most HK PO8 made for the LW, went to AA batteries and/or airfield security (the ground LW force that might be overrun). TH

Dwight Gruber · 12-09-2009, 01:00 AM

Could you please post closeup pictures of the top and right side of the receiver, and any marks which might still be present on the barrel? Thanks much.

--Dwight

ieyres · 12-09-2009, 08:37 AM

Many thanks for the replies, to answer a few questions….

No idea where the other Gun is, but it would be very interesting to find out. Apparently it's not in as good condition as this one, they definitely would look good together. I guess Mueller is a pretty common name in Germany, but it’s a name I'll keep an eye out for.

I've had a quick look at the circle S thread, very interesting.

Re the working toggle

, unfortunately the chamber is very full with a large lump of metal to stop any bullet being chambered, UK deactivation laws are pretty unsympathetic to historical firearms

Re Tom's post about the type of pistols issued to bomber (or I guess in this case fighter) crews. I'd not heard that & its something I plan to do some research on. Does anyone know if it was common for any police pistol to be reissued to any of armed forces at this time? I don’t know enough about the period to know if German weapons were in very short supply in 1940. I know the British army was short after the loss of so many left behind at Dunkirk.

Some more close up pictures are below, not sure how good they will be as the pitting is pretty severe under the barrel & on the side of the frame. The barrel to frame alignment witness mark is still pretty clear when the gun is held in the right position. Any ideas on the mark on the front of the trigger guard?

Does anyone have a rough production date for this pistol?

Thanks again for all the comments; the internet is a wonderful tool…….

Vlim · 12-09-2009, 08:50 AM

Hi,

The marking on the front trigger guard is an Erfurt marking. The Erfurt arsenal proofed just about every part after inspection.

Since the plane crash took place in 1940 there wouldn't have been a real shortage of fire arms just yet. It is interesting to see a former military pistol go through the police, then probably to the forerunner of the luftwaffe, then the luftwaffe. Perhaps one of the two men had a career to match that of the pistol.

Ron Wood · 12-09-2009, 11:20 AM

That is an interesting mark on the bottom of the frame just forward of the trigger guard. Was that added in the UK when the gun was deactivated?

Vlim · 12-09-2009, 12:17 PM

Ron, I think that is the deactivation marking, with 05 being the year of deactivation, 2005.

12-08-2009, 01:31 PM	#1
ieyres User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	A tired old Soldier… Hope this is an OK post to start (it’s my first on here so please be kind…) I recently brought this “relic” Luger having seen it for sale a couple of times during this year at some of the UK militaria fairs. The price was consistent with other relic Lugers I have seen over the last few years; however it has “a story” to go along with it, which has some local connections to where I live in the UK…. As a bit of a teaser it was used in both WW1 and WW2. After all this time the toggle still moves back and the trigger still works the firing pin. It’s been deactivated to the current UK specifications (hence the odd 2006 London proof marks) I’m keen to find out some basic info about the gun itself. Apart from knowing it’s a 1918 Erfurt I’m pretty much in the dark, the pitting makes it difficult to look for the remnants of proof marks etc when your not sure where to look. Many of the key areas are pretty much gone. Interestingly it has a circle S mark on the front left of the frame in front of the serial number (3623Q ?) and the remnants of a different number on the rear of the frame (179?) that doesn’t match the remainder of the gun. The side plate is numbered ?9 The barrel seems not to be numbered (period replacement or perhaps just too pitted to be visible) Any help you guys can give would be greatly appreciated & if anyone’s interested I’ll post up the story. Just hope I can master the picture upload…… Thanks Iain Attached Thumbnails

12-08-2009, 03:19 PM	#6
ieyres User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi all, thanks for that – please keep it coming ... I was wondering what that cut in the frame was. Is the Circle S mark proof of a rework of some sort? A shadow box is on the plan, I have an old 1940's Dinky toy to go in there as well (see picture) Anyway as promised, here’s the story – lots of blanks, but I’m still researching & have yet to talk to a couple of the people involved…… Rewind back to 1940, France has fallen and The Battle of Britain is at its height, The Luftwaffe is now targeting British fighter stations in its attempt to clear the skies for the planned invasion. Messerschmitt 110 heavy fighters from the 1 Staffel / Zerstoerergeschwader 2 take off from their base in France to escort bombers to an attack on RAF North Weald…….. “German Aircraft loss reported for 2 German Messerschmitt Bf 110's collided at 10.50 on Tuesday 3rd September 1940, both from 1 Staffel / Zerstoerergeschwader 2 BF 110C-4 (2065) Code 3M+EK flown by Fw. Wagenbrett - crashed at Hobbs Cross, Harlow, Essex BF110C-4 (2133) Code 3M+HL flown by Oblt. Mueller - crashed at Rye Hill, Essex ” The aircraft were involved with one of the largest attacks on North Weald Fighter station during the Battle of Britain. source book: The Battle of Britain than and now Oblt. Mueller bailed out and survived the collision, but the remaining 3 aircrew involved perished. A picture of Mueller’s crashed 110 is visible on the web site listed below. Unfortunately I have not yet found a picture of 3M+EK http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety...9/mueller.html This Luger was one of a pair “liberated” from the Wagenbrett / Schubert crash by one of the first people to arrive on the scene, presumably for possible use in the event of the threatened invasion. Interfering with a crash sight was illegal with the authorities at that time, so the pair of guns were buried in his back garden and over time forgotten about. Many years later (approximately 2005) they were found by the relative of the guy that originally removed them. He decided to pass them on to a registered firearms dealer & after UK deactivation and a long story one of them has ended up with me. I believe when it was first sold it had the remnants of the grips and the magazine, however since 2005 these have disappeared. There are still some holes that need to be filled in on the story I live in Essex, not far from North Weald airfield and have always had a fascination with the Battle of Britain. This Luger to me is a very strong reminder of the enormous struggle that occurred in our skies during those days. Every time I look at it I can’t help but feel respect and a degree of sadness for all the people on both sides who gave their lives in the conflict. September the 3rd 2010 is the 70th anniversary of this small event in history, it would be right to pay my respects in someway either at the grave side if they can be found, or at the sight of the crash. Hope that’s of interest to some people, one of the few advantages of living in the crowded south east of England is that WW2 history is very accessible here. Thanks again for what ever info you can give. Attached Images

12-08-2009, 03:22 PM	#7
ieyres User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Next picture Attached Thumbnails

12-08-2009, 06:13 PM	#11
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	Iain, welcome to the forum. It's quite interesting, behind any Luger is a nice story to tell. __________________ Regards, Andy There's No Place Like Home (Wizard Of Oz)

12-08-2009, 06:14 PM	#12
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Fascinating story! Dwight Gruber has been researching the Circled-S markings and this thread will give you some background - http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13170. The front grip strap is pretty much gone but I would not be surprised if it once had the marking Ma.179. Unfortunately, I don't know what this means either. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

12-08-2009, 02:19 PM	#2
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Welcome to the forum. Your Luger is a piece of history that you can hold in your hand. I think it would look great mounted in a shadow box with its printed history beneath it. I believe that 1918 was the last year Erfurt made Lugers and I would be interested in hearing its story. Charlie

12-08-2009, 02:33 PM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,041 Thanks: 1,029 Thanked 3,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	It also has the cut for a magazine safety in the frame, suggesting it went into police service somewhere after 1918. 179 is probably its police rack or gun number.

12-08-2009, 02:33 PM	#4
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Iain, Your Erfurt was modified after WWI for police use (you can see the notch in the left frame for the magazine safety). Apart from that, it looks like it has spent some time in salt water - but I am sure that's part of the story! Regards, Norm

12-08-2009, 02:36 PM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I'm guessing a backyard garden or shed..

12-08-2009, 03:33 PM	#8
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Iain, Great story! You're quite right, the circle S is believed to be a police rework mark. I still have memories of the "Battle of Britain" and the sounds of VI rockets some time later, as a small boy growing up in London. Regards, Norm

12-08-2009, 05:27 PM	#9
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Great story. Thanks and good wishes. Charlie

12-08-2009, 06:13 PM	#10
heers68 User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: N.C. Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wonderful and well done trip through history!! Good show! I wonder if Herr Mueller is still alive? Do you know where the other Luger is? What was its condition? Shame they cant stay together since they went down together. Kevin.

12-08-2009, 06:33 PM	#13
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Great story! I love to hear the anecdotes behind the equipment..."Everyone has a story"... Since you said the toggle still works, I trust you verified the chamber was empty??? There was an unfortunate accident here in the Colonies some years back involving some boys who found an old rusted .22 automatic and attempted to free up the action, not knowing there was still a live round in the chamber...

12-08-2009, 08:13 PM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	It's difficult to believe that a Weimar marked Police pistol made it to a LW aircraft. Most bomber crews were issued non-German made pistols (CZ27s, Femarus, etc) based on the belief that if they were shot down, most crews wouldn't live to take about it, and if they did, they probaly wouldn't be able to make it back to the Fatherland. Most HK PO8 made for the LW, went to AA batteries and/or airfield security (the ground LW force that might be overrun). TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-09-2009, 01:00 AM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Could you please post closeup pictures of the top and right side of the receiver, and any marks which might still be present on the barrel? Thanks much. --Dwight

12-09-2009, 08:37 AM	#17
ieyres User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Many thanks for the replies, to answer a few questions…. No idea where the other Gun is, but it would be very interesting to find out. Apparently it's not in as good condition as this one, they definitely would look good together. I guess Mueller is a pretty common name in Germany, but it’s a name I'll keep an eye out for. I've had a quick look at the circle S thread, very interesting. Re the working toggle , unfortunately the chamber is very full with a large lump of metal to stop any bullet being chambered, UK deactivation laws are pretty unsympathetic to historical firearms Re Tom's post about the type of pistols issued to bomber (or I guess in this case fighter) crews. I'd not heard that & its something I plan to do some research on. Does anyone know if it was common for any police pistol to be reissued to any of armed forces at this time? I don’t know enough about the period to know if German weapons were in very short supply in 1940. I know the British army was short after the loss of so many left behind at Dunkirk. Some more close up pictures are below, not sure how good they will be as the pitting is pretty severe under the barrel & on the side of the frame. The barrel to frame alignment witness mark is still pretty clear when the gun is held in the right position. Any ideas on the mark on the front of the trigger guard? Does anyone have a rough production date for this pistol? Thanks again for all the comments; the internet is a wonderful tool……. Attached Thumbnails

12-09-2009, 08:50 AM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,041 Thanks: 1,029 Thanked 3,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Hi, The marking on the front trigger guard is an Erfurt marking. The Erfurt arsenal proofed just about every part after inspection. Since the plane crash took place in 1940 there wouldn't have been a real shortage of fire arms just yet. It is interesting to see a former military pistol go through the police, then probably to the forerunner of the luftwaffe, then the luftwaffe. Perhaps one of the two men had a career to match that of the pistol.

12-09-2009, 11:20 AM	#19
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,098 Times in 1,676 Posts	That is an interesting mark on the bottom of the frame just forward of the trigger guard. Was that added in the UK when the gun was deactivated? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-09-2009, 12:17 PM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,041 Thanks: 1,029 Thanked 3,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Ron, I think that is the deactivation marking, with 05 being the year of deactivation, 2005.