Should there be a separate forum for 3rd Riech Lugers?

John Sabato · 07-11-2002, 12:15 PM

Is the category of P-08 Military Lugers sufficient to cover this period in the Luger history of manufacture and use, or does it need a separate discussion forum?

If you think it should be a separate discussion category please vote YES.

If you think it should stay included in the P-08 Military Lugers please vote NO.

All votes will be recorded anonymously and the results of the poll will be posted here. The poll will remain open for about a week. You can only vote once [img]wink.gif[/img]

John Sabato · 07-11-2002, 04:36 PM

[quote]crgkstnr No It should be a Mauser forum. Do people talk about Democratic administration M 16's? <hr></blockquote>

I agree with "crgkstar" that IF this period is addressed with a separate forum, it should not have anything to do with the politics of the time. But I think to use Mauser would be inappropriate as a name because Krieghoff's also fall into this time period...

Let's see what the rest of the comments look like and the vote tally before any decision is made.

Doug G. · 07-11-2002, 05:32 PM

I think that it should be divided into three. Imperial, Weimar & Police and Third Reich.

John Sabato · 07-11-2002, 05:55 PM

So if we do as Doug suggests, what do we do about the police pistols during the appropriate period of manufacture... and how about police pistols that may have been pressed into service for military use and vice-versa?

Is this getting WAY too complicated? [img]confused.gif[/img]

Doug G. · 07-11-2002, 06:23 PM

John, I feel that since Police guns are so few that there would be no reason to worry about the different era's. The police guns are basiclly the same throughout all periods. Does it really matter what the gun started out as? In my view once it was re-worked into a police model it becomes just that a "Police". Comments? [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

John Sabato · 07-11-2002, 06:27 PM

well, today the votes are about even, but i am still not convinced we need to make the forum more complex than it already is... it will be interesting to see how the votes tally in a week or so...

with over 350 registered users, 19 votes split two ways so far does not a decision to create a separate forum make... time will tell [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Heinz · 07-11-2002, 10:33 PM

John and all, I like the concept of Imperial, Weimar, and 3rd Reich. And I am not at all a fan of the third groups politics. I think sorting things out is not a problem. I have a 1915 military Weimar reworked to a Police. Hmmm Would that be Weimar or post weimar . . . Maybe John is right. I vote to leave it stay as is.

Heinz

Edward Tinker · 07-11-2002, 10:41 PM

That was the feeling I worrbled with too.

(new word) [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

MauserLugers · 07-12-2002, 01:44 PM

Hi,
I feel that Mauser Lugers, or Third Reich Lugers, have enough variations in them to have a seperate forum. They started in 1933 and went up until 1942 or possible 1943. There are commercials with the high luster finish of the Obendorf's and the early K-dates. There are the military examples with the different acceptance marks. There are the military police Mausers like the G-date and 1936 police Lugers with the sear safety. The standard contract police models and the late war commercials. -- Also, anything with a sear safety is a Third Reich Luger, and there are thousands of these police Lugers that were reworked. I do not know if it is necessary to have an added forum for the Mauser Lugers, but without question, there are more variations and models in this group than any other Manufacture. Thanks -- Bill Munis

crgkstnr · 07-12-2002, 01:54 PM

Would it help to use the word "era", as in "Third Reich Era" forum? This would distance the politics from the pistols.
Craig

Doubs · 07-12-2002, 02:02 PM

IMO, no. The existing categories cover all eras and there is little or no need to complicate things further. There is equal justification to establish Imperial and Weimar periods but I think existing categories are perfectly adequate.

As far as Police models are concerned, I do not agree that the addition of a sear safety and magazine safety automatically makes that pistol a Third Reich item. I have a 1916 Erfurt that was converted to Police configuration but it is first and foremost a military issue Erfurt of the Imperial era. Adding seat belts in 2002 to a 1950 Ford doesn't make it a 21st Century car; Why does adding a safety feature to an Imperial Luger suddenly make it a Third Reich Luger? It remains an Imperial Luger modified during the Third Reich period for police use.

wterrell · 07-12-2002, 08:44 PM

Anyone remember the pic that I posted? That is the image that a large portion of the world associates with the third Riech.

Roadkill · 07-12-2002, 09:02 PM

Ya'll catch this grenade. Many folks will have the opinion that the creation of a specific platform for the NAZI (call it what it is) period Lugers is paramount to giving dignity and legitimacy to the NSDAP and everything it stood for. A Luger is a Luger, a Confederate battle flag is a battle flag. Its the perception people have of items that are viewed as symbols that causes the friction. If considered at all, then call all Lugers forums by the years only, 1900-05,1905-1910, 1911-1918, ect.
Leave off the handles.

RK

Edward Tinker · 07-12-2002, 10:21 PM

How to agree with RK, better to keep sections named as they are or eras by years.

crgkstnr · 07-13-2002, 12:09 AM

With the old site I read a greater variety of postings. With the new site and the different forums I find I don't visit many of the subforums and miss variety.

Fewer forums are better IMO.

Artillery, Navy, some Military some Commercial, Early, could all be covered by "Imperial Era"

Less is more

Craig
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

MauserLugers · 07-15-2002, 05:48 PM

Hi Doubs,
I have to disagree with you on your Imperial Luger with the sear safety. In my opinion, it started out as an Erfurt and when the sear safety and magazine safety were added it no longer is an Imperial Luger, but a Third Reich Luger. Imperial era Lugers were for Lugers used through 1918 -- Weimar era Lugers were used from 1919 to 1933 roughly, and Third Reich Lugers were for Lugers used from 1933 through 1945 roughly. The key word here is "used". Yes, that 1916 Erfurt was originally an Imperial Luger, but when the sear safety was added, the era of use then became 1933 and beyond, making it no longer strictly and only an Imperial Luger. I would think you would label these as to the last use they had, not the first. Is a 1916 Navy with a new 4 inch barrel and a sear safety still an Imperial Navy, or a Nazi police? In my mind it is now strictly a police Luger with a history of one time being an Imperial Navy, but it is not now an Imperial Navy. Guess it is how one wants to look at it and how he wants to label them? Sincerely, Bill Munis

John Sabato · 08-08-2002, 04:17 PM

It has taken me a while to get back to this poll, and it appears that the 'nays' have it... the Luger categories used for individual discussion forums shall not change, and shall stand as they are...at least for the foreseeable future...

07-11-2002, 12:15 PM	#1
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Should there be a separate forum for 3rd Riech Lugers? Is the category of P-08 Military Lugers sufficient to cover this period in the Luger history of manufacture and use, or does it need a separate discussion forum? If you think it should be a separate discussion category please vote YES. If you think it should stay included in the P-08 Military Lugers please vote NO. All votes will be recorded anonymously and the results of the poll will be posted here. The poll will remain open for about a week. You can only vote once [img]wink.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-11-2002, 04:36 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	[quote]crgkstnr No It should be a Mauser forum. Do people talk about Democratic administration M 16's? <hr></blockquote> I agree with "crgkstar" that IF this period is addressed with a separate forum, it should not have anything to do with the politics of the time. But I think to use Mauser would be inappropriate as a name because Krieghoff's also fall into this time period... Let's see what the rest of the comments look like and the vote tally before any decision is made. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-11-2002, 05:32 PM	#3
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	I think that it should be divided into three. Imperial, Weimar & Police and Third Reich. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

07-11-2002, 05:55 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	So if we do as Doug suggests, what do we do about the police pistols during the appropriate period of manufacture... and how about police pistols that may have been pressed into service for military use and vice-versa? Is this getting WAY too complicated? [img]confused.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-11-2002, 06:23 PM	#5
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	John, I feel that since Police guns are so few that there would be no reason to worry about the different era's. The police guns are basiclly the same throughout all periods. Does it really matter what the gun started out as? In my view once it was re-worked into a police model it becomes just that a "Police". Comments? [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

07-11-2002, 06:27 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	well, today the votes are about even, but i am still not convinced we need to make the forum more complex than it already is... it will be interesting to see how the votes tally in a week or so... with over 350 registered users, 19 votes split two ways so far does not a decision to create a separate forum make... time will tell [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-11-2002, 10:33 PM	#7
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	John and all, I like the concept of Imperial, Weimar, and 3rd Reich. And I am not at all a fan of the third groups politics. I think sorting things out is not a problem. I have a 1915 military Weimar reworked to a Police. Hmmm Would that be Weimar or post weimar . . . Maybe John is right. I vote to leave it stay as is. Heinz

07-11-2002, 10:41 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,988 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	That was the feeling I worrbled with too. (new word) [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-12-2002, 01:44 PM	#9
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, I feel that Mauser Lugers, or Third Reich Lugers, have enough variations in them to have a seperate forum. They started in 1933 and went up until 1942 or possible 1943. There are commercials with the high luster finish of the Obendorf's and the early K-dates. There are the military examples with the different acceptance marks. There are the military police Mausers like the G-date and 1936 police Lugers with the sear safety. The standard contract police models and the late war commercials. -- Also, anything with a sear safety is a Third Reich Luger, and there are thousands of these police Lugers that were reworked. I do not know if it is necessary to have an added forum for the Mauser Lugers, but without question, there are more variations and models in this group than any other Manufacture. Thanks -- Bill Munis

07-12-2002, 01:54 PM	#10
crgkstnr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Would it help to use the word "era", as in "Third Reich Era" forum? This would distance the politics from the pistols. Craig

07-12-2002, 02:02 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	IMO, no. The existing categories cover all eras and there is little or no need to complicate things further. There is equal justification to establish Imperial and Weimar periods but I think existing categories are perfectly adequate. As far as Police models are concerned, I do not agree that the addition of a sear safety and magazine safety automatically makes that pistol a Third Reich item. I have a 1916 Erfurt that was converted to Police configuration but it is first and foremost a military issue Erfurt of the Imperial era. Adding seat belts in 2002 to a 1950 Ford doesn't make it a 21st Century car; Why does adding a safety feature to an Imperial Luger suddenly make it a Third Reich Luger? It remains an Imperial Luger modified during the Third Reich period for police use.

07-12-2002, 08:44 PM	#12
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Anyone remember the pic that I posted? That is the image that a large portion of the world associates with the third Riech. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-12-2002, 09:02 PM	#13
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Ya'll catch this grenade. Many folks will have the opinion that the creation of a specific platform for the NAZI (call it what it is) period Lugers is paramount to giving dignity and legitimacy to the NSDAP and everything it stood for. A Luger is a Luger, a Confederate battle flag is a battle flag. Its the perception people have of items that are viewed as symbols that causes the friction. If considered at all, then call all Lugers forums by the years only, 1900-05,1905-1910, 1911-1918, ect. Leave off the handles. RK

07-12-2002, 10:21 PM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,988 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	How to agree with RK, better to keep sections named as they are or eras by years. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-13-2002, 12:09 AM	#15
crgkstnr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	With the old site I read a greater variety of postings. With the new site and the different forums I find I don't visit many of the subforums and miss variety. Fewer forums are better IMO. Artillery, Navy, some Military some Commercial, Early, could all be covered by "Imperial Era" Less is more Craig <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

07-15-2002, 05:48 PM	#16
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Doubs, I have to disagree with you on your Imperial Luger with the sear safety. In my opinion, it started out as an Erfurt and when the sear safety and magazine safety were added it no longer is an Imperial Luger, but a Third Reich Luger. Imperial era Lugers were for Lugers used through 1918 -- Weimar era Lugers were used from 1919 to 1933 roughly, and Third Reich Lugers were for Lugers used from 1933 through 1945 roughly. The key word here is "used". Yes, that 1916 Erfurt was originally an Imperial Luger, but when the sear safety was added, the era of use then became 1933 and beyond, making it no longer strictly and only an Imperial Luger. I would think you would label these as to the last use they had, not the first. Is a 1916 Navy with a new 4 inch barrel and a sear safety still an Imperial Navy, or a Nazi police? In my mind it is now strictly a police Luger with a history of one time being an Imperial Navy, but it is not now an Imperial Navy. Guess it is how one wants to look at it and how he wants to label them? Sincerely, Bill Munis

08-08-2002, 04:17 PM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	It has taken me a while to get back to this poll, and it appears that the 'nays' have it... the Luger categories used for individual discussion forums shall not change, and shall stand as they are...at least for the foreseeable future... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*