American Eagle Fat Barrel

Andre' · 11-13-2013, 09:51 PM

Two weeks ago I have been offered a fat barrel at a reasonable price, and was ready to make a purchase - the check was signed and I just picked up a copy of my local dealer's FFL. To get a second opinion I've contacted Ron Wood and he pointed out a few "issues" or areas of concern, that prompted me to do my "due dilligence" before mailing the check. Thank you very much again, Ron! You are the BEST!

Long story short - Ron was concerned about the finish of the gun (possible re-blue) as well of the strawing of all the small parts. Too shiny and not matching the overall condition. The gun, of course, was not advertised as "refinished" or "restrawed".

So I searched the www for aditional information on this gun and did a search by serial # and this luger came up right away. Here is the link:

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/58/lid/1626

Under "Condition" here is what it says:

Very fine as refinished with 95% of the restored blue finish overall, with wear on the edges and high spots with restamped clear sharp markings. The various small parts retain 75% of their original straw colors overall. The walnut grips are in very fine condition with nice distinct checkering showing minor handling marks overall. Mechanically functions, but recoil spring on toggle assembly is weak.

Needless to say I didn't purchase this luger, and please be aware of a fat barrel with the serial # 22726.

ithacaartist · 11-13-2013, 10:53 PM

Andre',

RIAC makes its realized prices/hammer prices available for a short time after their auctions end and the smoke clears. It is too late now to find out how much this one sold for on their block this spring, so all we have is their high/low bid estimates of $3,750-4500. these estimates were RIAC's projection of the price range the gun might realize, but obviously taking into consideration that is re-blued. If the finish were actually original, I'd expect their estimates would have been significantly higher. I'm curious as to how much more the seller was asking, but if you don't wish to divulge the details, I understand (kind of). Did the seller approach you with the offer? Since the re-blue was not revealed to you, this may have constituted fraud. Do you come away with the sense that the seller was trying to "burn" you?

Ron Wood · 11-13-2013, 11:35 PM

David,
Andre' gave a pretty good account of what went down. I am pleased that as a result of my misgivings he did "due dilligence", as we all should, and had a satisfactory ending. When dealing with on line purchases, regardless of the vendor, you must never blindly accept everything that is presented. Even the dealers with the best reputations can sometimes also be taken in themselves. We must be careful when suggesting fraud as it is difficult to determine whether it is a true mistake or a deliberate misrepresentation. You cannot say for sure that any "enhancement" to a piece was performed by the vendor or if he took in a boosted piece and didn't check it out thoroughly. Heed Andre's warning and move on.

ithacaartist · 11-14-2013, 12:16 AM

Ron,

I agree--and please note that I did qualify my suspicious fightin' words with a "may be". Of course, we don't/can't know all the facts, such as whether the online seller was the buyer at the auction, "if" the buyer-then-seller even read the auction description , "if" he simply forgot to include the info. in his listing, and "if" the seller even knew the difference to begin with. I confess it's sometimes easy to cast aspersions at a situation that seems questionable or fishy, particularly when enough info is released to inspire a jumped-to conclusion, but not enough to establish the actuality of a situation.

Since I don't swim in the waters of the elevated collectibles, I have no horse in these races; rather, I'm outside the track, in the parking lot! I heed your advice about heeding Andre's warning and moving on, no problem...

Michael Zeleny · 11-14-2013, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

It is too late now to find out how much this one sold for on their block this spring

Not at all: $3,500.00 + $717.50 buyer's premium.

http://www.icollector.com/DWM-Model-...stol_i15827730

Andre' · 11-14-2013, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

Not at all: $3,500.00 + $717.50 buyer's premium.

http://www.icollector.com/DWM-Model-...stol_i15827730

That is interesting - I didn't know for much it sold! I'm glad I walked away from from this deal. All this is water under the bridge and I don't really want to reveal any additional details concerning this offer, but the offer price was more than twice the the sales price. That would have been a nice profit margin for the seller.

alvin · 11-14-2013, 06:49 AM

You went away because it's refurbished. The seller had bought it because it's refurbished. When we watch those auctions, there is a question mark -- "who's buying those refurbished guns?? almost all of them were sold"....well, buyers are usually gun brokers reselling many firearms. Maybe contrary to traditional view -- refurbished guns are easier to resell on the market due to the price is lower. So, some refurbished C&R in auctions reappear on the market later. Some sellers are honest saying it's refurbished, and some sellers do not mention that.

CJS57 · 11-14-2013, 07:44 AM

I would sure like to see some opinions on that gun by people who have actually inspected the gun in person. Straw parts are routinely boosted and that is easy to detect, so that is not a question here. It is the blue and underlying metal itself that I wonder about. The auction price was actually a bargain, refinished or not.

alvin · 11-14-2013, 08:24 AM

Chris,

More pictures here:

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/21705FB1902.htm

====

So, if we think about this logic.... say, if spending $12K acquiring an original Fat Barrel (I don't know it's prevailing market price, just an example number), assume it definitely worth $12K, or even $13K, $14K, but there is no way to resell it for $24K @100% "margin" in short term, even if it's original and nice. I must be a lover of the Fat Barrel to pay $12K for it because that $12K becomes "dead money" in long period time. But if spending $4.25K acquiring a refurbished Fat Barrel, and it's possible to resell it for $8.5K....then,,, I don't have to be a lover of this, it's just a short-term money generator.

I bet PIA being the buyer of this item in auction.... s/n matches

Norme · 11-14-2013, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Chris,

More pictures here:

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/21705FB1902.htm

Well, well, well, Phoenix Investment Arms, who'd have thought?
Norm

Ben M. · 11-14-2013, 10:36 AM

this seller does not mention the refin. and he even hints at something else. what a sly dog, this guy

The inside of this gun is as clean and pristine at the exterior. Obviously well cared for this Luger is looking for a good home and another custodian who will treasure its craftsmanship.

Andre' · 11-14-2013, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Chris,

More pictures here:

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/21705FB1902.htm

====

So, if we think about this logic.... say, if spending $12K acquiring an original Fat Barrel (I don't know it's prevailing market price, just an example number), assume it definitely worth $12K, or even $13K, $14K, but there is no way to resell it for $24K @100% "margin" in short term, even if it's original and nice. I must be a lover of the Fat Barrel to pay $12K for it because that $12K becomes "dead money" in long period time. But if spending $4.25K acquiring a refurbished Fat Barrel, and it's possible to resell it for $8.5K....then,,, I don't have to be a lover of this, it's just a short-term money generator.

I bet PIA being the buyer of this item in auction.... s/n matches

Alvin, just went and checked PIA's web site - I don't see this gun there. Obviously, the attached link is still active but I seem to be unable finding it.

alvin · 11-14-2013, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andre'

Alvin, just went and checked PIA's web site - I don't see this gun there. Obviously, the attached link is still active but I seem to be unable finding it.

Another way to see it is clicking on the "New Additions" button on the left side of the page. A list of pistols show up, and the Fat Barrel is among them.

====

[Edit] Sorry, that's another one. SN 22689. Not the one you mentioned. To see SN 22726, you have to click on the link that I posted earlier.

.... You know, this variation is hard to come even for advanced Luger collectors..... and he has two for sale.... what's going on these days....

Andre' · 11-14-2013, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Another way to see it is clicking on the "New Additions" button on the left side of the page. A list of pistols show up, and the Fat Barrel is among them.

====

[Edit] Sorry, that's another one. SN 22689. Not the one you mentioned. To see SN 22726, you have to click on the link that I posted earlier.

.... You know, this variation is hard to come even for advanced Luger collectors..... and he has two for sale.... what's going on these days....

That one seems to be ser# 22689. I cannot find ser#22726 which is the one in question. Thanks,

Edit: Never mind - should have read your FULL reply first.

alvin · 11-14-2013, 08:58 PM

Andre', here is the screen capture of SN 22726 on PIA.

Andre' · 11-14-2013, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Andre', here is the screen capture of SN 22726 on PIA.

Thank you. So, just to confirm, you did find this gun listed on his web site? It is a current listing, correct?

alvin · 11-14-2013, 09:23 PM

It was listed, so it's in my bookmark list. But you're right, I cannot find it in the site's catalog anymore. From the current catalog, you won't find the ad.

alvin · 11-14-2013, 09:34 PM

Wait a minute....

So, your question implied the seller was not PIA. Someone else offered you this instance....

Interesting.... the only possibility, someone bought the gun from RIAC, and consigned it to PIA, and later dropped the advertisement. The dropped ad was not marked as "SOLD". Or, someone bought the instance from PIA, and resell it to you immediately, why??? Upgraded so fast??

Andre' · 11-14-2013, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Wait a minute....

So, your question implied the seller was not PIA. Someone else offered you this instance....

Interesting.... the only possibility, someone bought the gun from RIAC, and consigned it to PIA, and later dropped the advertisement. The dropped ad was not marked as "SOLD". Or, someone bought the instance from PIA, and resell it to you immediately, why??? Upgraded so fast??

Just that much - I'm surprised how fast you guys are connecting the dots without having that much information. Let's leave it like that - I don't know all the facts yet so I will have to give the seller the benefit of the doubt.

But the information I've got from all of your replies will definitively help me to choose wisely next time I'm in the market for another luger.

Thank you, Andre'

Geo99 · 11-17-2013, 09:49 PM

I think I would pay $4000 for a nicely restored 95% fat barrel - would any of you guys?

11-13-2013, 09:51 PM	#1
Andre' User Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: South East Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	American Eagle Fat Barrel Two weeks ago I have been offered a fat barrel at a reasonable price, and was ready to make a purchase - the check was signed and I just picked up a copy of my local dealer's FFL. To get a second opinion I've contacted Ron Wood and he pointed out a few "issues" or areas of concern, that prompted me to do my "due dilligence" before mailing the check. Thank you very much again, Ron! You are the BEST! Long story short - Ron was concerned about the finish of the gun (possible re-blue) as well of the strawing of all the small parts. Too shiny and not matching the overall condition. The gun, of course, was not advertised as "refinished" or "restrawed". So I searched the www for aditional information on this gun and did a search by serial # and this luger came up right away. Here is the link: http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/58/lid/1626 Under "Condition" here is what it says: Very fine as refinished with 95% of the restored blue finish overall, with wear on the edges and high spots with restamped clear sharp markings. The various small parts retain 75% of their original straw colors overall. The walnut grips are in very fine condition with nice distinct checkering showing minor handling marks overall. Mechanically functions, but recoil spring on toggle assembly is weak. Needless to say I didn't purchase this luger, and please be aware of a fat barrel with the serial # 22726.

11-13-2013, 11:35 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	David, Andre' gave a pretty good account of what went down. I am pleased that as a result of my misgivings he did "due dilligence", as we all should, and had a satisfactory ending. When dealing with on line purchases, regardless of the vendor, you must never blindly accept everything that is presented. Even the dealers with the best reputations can sometimes also be taken in themselves. We must be careful when suggesting fraud as it is difficult to determine whether it is a true mistake or a deliberate misrepresentation. You cannot say for sure that any "enhancement" to a piece was performed by the vendor or if he took in a boosted piece and didn't check it out thoroughly. Heed Andre's warning and move on. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-14-2013, 12:16 AM	#4
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,282 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	Ron, I agree--and please note that I did qualify my suspicious fightin' words with a "may be". Of course, we don't/can't know all the facts, such as whether the online seller was the buyer at the auction, "if" the buyer-then-seller even read the auction description , "if" he simply forgot to include the info. in his listing, and "if" the seller even knew the difference to begin with. I confess it's sometimes easy to cast aspersions at a situation that seems questionable or fishy, particularly when enough info is released to inspire a jumped-to conclusion, but not enough to establish the actuality of a situation. Since I don't swim in the waters of the elevated collectibles, I have no horse in these races; rather, I'm outside the track, in the parking lot! I heed your advice about heeding Andre's warning and moving on, no problem... __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

11-14-2013, 08:58 PM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Andre', here is the screen capture of SN 22726 on PIA. Attached Thumbnails

11-17-2013, 09:49 PM	#20
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 100 Thanked 125 Times in 74 Posts	I think I would pay $4000 for a nicely restored 95% fat barrel - would any of you guys? __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

11-13-2013, 10:53 PM	#2
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,282 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	Andre', RIAC makes its realized prices/hammer prices available for a short time after their auctions end and the smoke clears. It is too late now to find out how much this one sold for on their block this spring, so all we have is their high/low bid estimates of $3,750-4500. these estimates were RIAC's projection of the price range the gun might realize, but obviously taking into consideration that is re-blued. If the finish were actually original, I'd expect their estimates would have been significantly higher. I'm curious as to how much more the seller was asking, but if you don't wish to divulge the details, I understand (kind of). Did the seller approach you with the offer? Since the re-blue was not revealed to you, this may have constituted fraud. Do you come away with the sense that the seller was trying to "burn" you? __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

11-14-2013, 06:49 AM	#7
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	You went away because it's refurbished. The seller had bought it because it's refurbished. When we watch those auctions, there is a question mark -- "who's buying those refurbished guns?? almost all of them were sold"....well, buyers are usually gun brokers reselling many firearms. Maybe contrary to traditional view -- refurbished guns are easier to resell on the market due to the price is lower. So, some refurbished C&R in auctions reappear on the market later. Some sellers are honest saying it's refurbished, and some sellers do not mention that.

11-14-2013, 07:44 AM	#8
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	I would sure like to see some opinions on that gun by people who have actually inspected the gun in person. Straw parts are routinely boosted and that is easy to detect, so that is not a question here. It is the blue and underlying metal itself that I wonder about. The auction price was actually a bargain, refinished or not.

11-14-2013, 08:24 AM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Chris, More pictures here: http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/21705FB1902.htm ==== So, if we think about this logic.... say, if spending $12K acquiring an original Fat Barrel (I don't know it's prevailing market price, just an example number), assume it definitely worth $12K, or even $13K, $14K, but there is no way to resell it for $24K @100% "margin" in short term, even if it's original and nice. I must be a lover of the Fat Barrel to pay $12K for it because that $12K becomes "dead money" in long period time. But if spending $4.25K acquiring a refurbished Fat Barrel, and it's possible to resell it for $8.5K....then,,, I don't have to be a lover of this, it's just a short-term money generator. I bet PIA being the buyer of this item in auction.... s/n matches

11-14-2013, 10:36 AM	#11
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 474 Thanks: 82 Thanked 117 Times in 79 Posts	this seller does not mention the refin. and he even hints at something else. what a sly dog, this guy The inside of this gun is as clean and pristine at the exterior. Obviously well cared for this Luger is looking for a good home and another custodian who will treasure its craftsmanship.

11-14-2013, 09:23 PM	#17
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	It was listed, so it's in my bookmark list. But you're right, I cannot find it in the site's catalog anymore. From the current catalog, you won't find the ad.

11-14-2013, 09:34 PM	#18
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Wait a minute.... So, your question implied the seller was not PIA. Someone else offered you this instance.... Interesting.... the only possibility, someone bought the gun from RIAC, and consigned it to PIA, and later dropped the advertisement. The dropped ad was not marked as "SOLD". Or, someone bought the instance from PIA, and resell it to you immediately, why??? Upgraded so fast??