TE s/n 6395, any comments?

[alvin]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=103798045

It's not in Dwight's database, but it's Bannerman.

[Edward Tinker]

wow, a bit expensive. looks good, but I worry when a Test Luger is so nice?


ed

[Tomathvl]

Can't tell for sure from photos but looks redone to me. Straw doesn't look right either.
Tom

[alvin]

Is the chamber area (around the Eagle, picture 2) too smooth?

Or, is it supposed to be so smooth? or, picture problem....

[Mike B]

Ed,
I wrote a rough draft of an editorial that I was going to post on the forum concerning my feelings about test eagles that didn't look like "test" weapons. I sent it to one of our more noted experts on test eagles for his approval and he reminded me that some of the test eagles went to West Point and other similar places where they might not have been subjected to the harsh treatment one might expect of a test weapon. With that, I backed off, but I am still somewhat bothered when I see these like new test eagles that look like someone took one on the day DWM delivered them and hid in a desk drawer until some lucky gun dealer happened upon it one hundred plus years later.

Mike

[Ron Wood]

Gut says it is a restoration, and not a particularly top-notch one. I believe it is a Test Eagle, but the starting bid is at least twice what it is worth. Just my opinion. Hope I don't get a nasty letter from someone's lawyer.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by Mike B
Ed,
I wrote a rough draft of an editorial that I was going to post on the forum concerning my feelings about test eagles that didn't look like "test" weapons. ...Mike

I have taken this into consideration; but you are talking 5, maybe 10% of the total, so maybe 100 weapons that 'could" be in much better shape, and actually I believe the number to be much smaller.

I have posted this before, but any 80-90 year old luger (especially tests) that are very, very nice, I beleive have a very good chance of being improved sometime in its life. yes, I have some very nice lugers myself, that I feel are righteous; but each nice, nice one needs to be looked at very carefully.


Ron, stating an opinion from years of experince would seem like a foolish thing for a lawyer to contest.

Ed

[Mauser720]

In his book "1900 Luger - U.S. Test Trials" Michael Reese III lists the following distribution of the 1,000 Lugers: U.S. Military Academy at West Point - 10; The Presidio at San Francisco - 15; Fort Hamilton, Brooklyn - 10; Fort Riley, Kansas - 40; and 5 to each commanding officer of the 185 troops of cavalry.

With the possible exception of the 10 pistols at West Point, what is the basis for speculating that some pistols may have not have received "harsh treatment" in course of being tested? The remaining 950 pistols did go to traditional military units and activities.

And Reese also lists the serial numbers of the then (1976) known examples. The total was then only 89.

This serial number, 6395, is not one of the examples he has listed. So does this mean that this example has surfaced since 1976?

Even if some of the information in Reese's book is "dated" it still needs to be taken into consideration.

Mike B, why not go ahead and post your draft on the concerns ou have identified? In my opinion, you would be doing the Luger Collecting Community a significant favor. And we should be thanking you in advance for your time and effort.

Mauser720 - Ron

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, Ron Wood has compiled a listing for 25-35 years on Test Lugers, Jan's new book Central Powers has a section just on it.


Several hundred lugers have been added.


The biggest change in thinking, if it is NOT a Bannerman #, then it is not positively a Test Luger. I own two non Bannerman numbered lugers, are they tests? They fit with in the "normal" thought of 6100-7100...

That is why we continue to form opinions and share information.


ed

[Mauser720]

Ed -

Thank you!

Mauser720 - Ron

[alvin]

Regarding non-Bannerman + non 'GERMANY'....

Nowadays, so many collectors asking the question "Does the 'GERMANY' stamp on the gun affect its value?"..... When did Americans start hating "import marks"..... could it be as early as 1900? If Tauscher had a chance to import some guns to the US commercial gun market without 'GERMANY', could he demand higher price? Or, is import mark negative only recently?

[John Sabato]

My gut is in the same place as Ron Wood... I think it is a restored gun... for me it is just "too blue" on the sharp edges to be original finish after this many years. That said, it is a nice gun, but way too expensive for the breed IMHO.

Lawyers Ron? Last time I looked, the 1st amendment said we can express our opinion on anything that we want. We have defamed no one, and have based our educated opinions on many years of experience in handling old firearms... If someone disgrees with us, they have that right as well.

[Ron Wood]

Alvin,
You asked if the 'GERMANY' stamp on a gun affects its value. No, if it is supposed to be there it is OK. Also, it is an export mark, not an import mark.

"If Tauscher had a chance to import some guns to the US commercial gun market without 'GERMANY', could he demand higher price?" Of course not. He was selling guns, not collectors' items. Everything from dinnerware to automobiles was required to be stamped with the country of origin. This was an original mark applied to a new item.

The beef nowadays is with the importers' marks that must to be applied to older firearms that has nothing to do with country of origin. It is just a bureaucratic hogwash to provide greater "traceability" of firearms, which, in addition to defacing the piece with "billboard markings", contributes to the distaste of collectors for import marked guns.

So you are correct, import marks are considered negative only recently.

[alvin]

Ron -- I was thinking the question that you mentioned in book "why there are around 2,000 Eagles have no 'GERMANY' stamp"....

[Ron Wood]

That is a mystery. Supposedly imported Lugers required a GERMANY export stamp. The 1900 US Test Trials Lugers were exempt from this requirement because it was a government contract. However, there are observed and reported Model 1900 Lugers in the approximate 6000 to 8000 serial number range that do not bear this GERMANY stamp. Only 1000 of these were purchased by the US Government, hence the question: How did the other 1000 Lugers get into the US without the required export stamp? A corollary to this question is: Which of these 2000 unstamped Lugers were part of the US Government contract? And that is what gives rise to the statement that only those Lugers included in the Bannerman purchase have the necessary provenance to be absolutely declared US Test Trials Lugers. The closer the proximity of the serial number of an American Eagle Luger that is not stamped Germany to the serial number range of 6000 to 7200, the more likely it is to have been a Test Luger, but that is not a positive endorsement.