Earliest Luger?

alanint · 01-31-2011, 01:33 PM

Does anybody have information on the earliest, surviving Luger?
I am interested in prototypes as well as production models?

Imperial Arms · 01-31-2011, 01:50 PM

It's the M1898 Borchardt Luger serial #5 which is in a Swiss museum. Prototypes and experimental models cost 'mucho' money.

Albert

John Sabato · 01-31-2011, 02:34 PM

Doug,

Would you mind identifying the US Unit that your Dad was assigned to at the battle of the bulge? My late father was also there (E Co, 39th Inf Regt, 9th Infantry Division)

Please tell Your Dad that I said Thanks for his service to our country!

Thanks,
-John

alanint · 01-31-2011, 03:40 PM

Right!
My Dad served with the 703rd. Bomb Squadron, 445th. Bomb Group out of Tibenham, England in WW2

drbuster · 01-31-2011, 08:56 PM

Albert is correct, as BL's #'s 2,3 and 4 are not known to exist. Certainly Swiss #1 is known but this is not the first luger.

alanint · 01-31-2011, 11:55 PM

Is there a photo of this gun extant?

drbuster · 02-01-2011, 12:03 AM

Doug, do you mean BL#5 or Swiss Ordonnanz 1900 #1? Both lugers are beautifully pictured on pages 93 (BL#5) and 109 (Swiss#1), Goertz & Sturgess's Pistole Parabellum, Volume I.

Edward Tinker · 02-01-2011, 12:44 AM

Herb,I am pretty sure that #5 is in Kenyon's book and several others, besides being on-line as a stolen item.

ed

EricW · 02-01-2011, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Is there a photo of this gun extant?

found this via Google...

http://www.luger-genesis.com/luger_i...t-Luger-5.html

John Sabato · 02-01-2011, 08:48 AM

As I recall, the #5 gun was stolen, but was eventually recovered and returned to it's rightful owner several years ago. Perhaps someone with a better memory can fill in the details.

Ron Wood · 02-01-2011, 09:51 AM

Here are photos of #5, #6 and the fake #5 that was substuted for the real gun when it was stolen.

drbuster · 02-01-2011, 10:20 AM

You are correct, Ed. And thanks to Ron above for the excellent photographs. The detail "saga" of the stolen BL#5 is in the Pistole Parabellum as well as the items quoted above. Quite an unfortunate set of circumstances that I was personally partially witness to as the BL#5 briefly "toured" the Reno show and was examined and photographed by myself and others. It was a rare honor to hold it but the rest is history!

A.Mifsin · 02-01-2011, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Here are photos of #5, #6 and the fake #5 that was substuted for the real gun when it was stolen.

Ron, Forgive my ignorance, but I take it that the second one from top is the fake No5, and the last one is the No6.

Alf.

Ron Wood · 02-01-2011, 11:10 AM

No, they are shown in order. Numbers 5 & 6 were originally the same. After the initial Swiss evaluation, #6 was subsequently "improved" by making relief cuts on the rear frame "ears" to make the gun lighter and adding a manual safety to the grip safety.

One of the more bizarre things about the #5 switch was that fake grips were put on the real #5 and the original grips were put on the substitute fake! You can see from the photo that the grips do not even fit the fake properly.

A.Mifsin · 02-01-2011, 11:15 AM

Ron, any particular reason why the No 5 and the No 6 are different regarding the safety and the rear frame section?
I take the since they are numbered 5 and 6 they were made in the same time frame.
Alf.

alanint · 02-01-2011, 11:16 AM

I don't think so. The second gun is the real #6. The last gun pictured is clearly a poor attempt at faking #5. It has a standard production trigger and a loped off standard production manual safety. Although the contour of the grips is correct, it does not mate properly with the frame to the rear. If the faker bothered to fill in the ears on the false frame, you would think they would have built up this area as well.
The grip safety is also a standard production bent sheet metal affair versus the elaborate machining of the real #5 and #6

A.Mifsin · 02-01-2011, 11:21 AM

I can't see the manual safety in No 6.
Alf.

Ron Wood · 02-01-2011, 11:32 AM

Alf,
You need to read my last post carefully. You will see that although #5 and #6 were initially the same, #6 was modified to make it lighter and have a manual as well as a grip safety. The manual safety is a sliding button on the grip safety. In the position shown, the manual safety is "off" and the grip safety can be depressed. When the manual safety is slid upward, the button on it is blocked by the frame and the grip so that the grip safety cannot be depressed.

A.Mifsin · 02-01-2011, 11:38 AM

Thank you Ron, I posted my second posting before I saw your last reply.

Alf.

Ron Wood · 02-01-2011, 11:41 AM

Oops! Sorry about my comment. Please forgive.

02-01-2011, 12:44 AM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Herb,I am pretty sure that #5 is in Kenyon's book and several others, besides being on-line as a stolen item. ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-01-2011, 08:48 AM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	As I recall, the #5 gun was stolen, but was eventually recovered and returned to it's rightful owner several years ago. Perhaps someone with a better memory can fill in the details. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-01-2011, 09:51 AM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Here are photos of #5, #6 and the fake #5 that was substuted for the real gun when it was stolen. Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-01-2011, 11:10 AM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	No, they are shown in order. Numbers 5 & 6 were originally the same. After the initial Swiss evaluation, #6 was subsequently "improved" by making relief cuts on the rear frame "ears" to make the gun lighter and adding a manual safety to the grip safety. One of the more bizarre things about the #5 switch was that fake grips were put on the real #5 and the original grips were put on the substitute fake! You can see from the photo that the grips do not even fit the fake properly. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-01-2011, 11:15 AM	#15
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Ron, any particular reason why the No 5 and the No 6 are different regarding the safety and the rear frame section? I take the since they are numbered 5 and 6 they were made in the same time frame. Alf. __________________ I prefer a Luger

01-31-2011, 01:33 PM	#1
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Earliest Luger? Does anybody have information on the earliest, surviving Luger? I am interested in prototypes as well as production models?

01-31-2011, 01:50 PM	#2
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	It's the M1898 Borchardt Luger serial #5 which is in a Swiss museum. Prototypes and experimental models cost 'mucho' money. Albert

01-31-2011, 02:34 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Doug, Would you mind identifying the US Unit that your Dad was assigned to at the battle of the bulge? My late father was also there (E Co, 39th Inf Regt, 9th Infantry Division) Please tell Your Dad that I said Thanks for his service to our country! Thanks, -John

01-31-2011, 03:40 PM	#4
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Right! My Dad served with the 703rd. Bomb Squadron, 445th. Bomb Group out of Tibenham, England in WW2

01-31-2011, 08:56 PM	#5
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Albert is correct, as BL's #'s 2,3 and 4 are not known to exist. Certainly Swiss #1 is known but this is not the first luger.

01-31-2011, 11:55 PM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Is there a photo of this gun extant?

02-01-2011, 12:03 AM	#7
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Doug, do you mean BL#5 or Swiss Ordonnanz 1900 #1? Both lugers are beautifully pictured on pages 93 (BL#5) and 109 (Swiss#1), Goertz & Sturgess's Pistole Parabellum, Volume I.

02-01-2011, 10:20 AM	#12
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	You are correct, Ed. And thanks to Ron above for the excellent photographs. The detail "saga" of the stolen BL#5 is in the Pistole Parabellum as well as the items quoted above. Quite an unfortunate set of circumstances that I was personally partially witness to as the BL#5 briefly "toured" the Reno show and was examined and photographed by myself and others. It was a rare honor to hold it but the rest is history!

02-01-2011, 11:16 AM	#16
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I don't think so. The second gun is the real #6. The last gun pictured is clearly a poor attempt at faking #5. It has a standard production trigger and a loped off standard production manual safety. Although the contour of the grips is correct, it does not mate properly with the frame to the rear. If the faker bothered to fill in the ears on the false frame, you would think they would have built up this area as well. The grip safety is also a standard production bent sheet metal affair versus the elaborate machining of the real #5 and #6

02-01-2011, 11:21 AM	#17
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	I can't see the manual safety in No 6. Alf. __________________ I prefer a Luger

02-01-2011, 11:32 AM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Alf, You need to read my last post carefully. You will see that although #5 and #6 were initially the same, #6 was modified to make it lighter and have a manual as well as a grip safety. The manual safety is a sliding button on the grip safety. In the position shown, the manual safety is "off" and the grip safety can be depressed. When the manual safety is slid upward, the button on it is blocked by the frame and the grip so that the grip safety cannot be depressed. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-01-2011, 11:38 AM	#19
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Thank you Ron, I posted my second posting before I saw your last reply. Alf. __________________ I prefer a Luger

02-01-2011, 11:41 AM	#20
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Oops! Sorry about my comment. Please forgive. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction