What is the fate of M1902 s/n 10030B?

2grimjim · 10-10-2007, 07:14 PM

Ok, all knowledgable ones, I have a challenge for you!

Now that I've found a source of reliable data on early Lugers I would like to hear from anyone interested, an answer or opinion to one or all of these questions;

1) In Fred Datigs 1958 revised edition of his book "The Luger Pistol" (I know, I know! I can allready hear the howling! It's 50 years out of date info) on pg.239 the author recalls a story of someone that contacted him after the first edition of his book was published in 1955.
A collector informed him of a M1902 that was sold to a family member (Dr. Earl D. Fuller) by the Springfield Armory on Nov. 7 1913. The collector had an original Bill of Sale dated June 3 1910 that was from the Springfild Army and approved by the Secretary of War.
There were a total of six corrospondences from the War Depatrment, House of Representatives, and the Springfield Armory reprinted in Datigs book detailing the sale transaction of a 9mm Luger, two magazines, and 500 rounds of ammunition to Dr. Fuller.
It's not stated in the in any of the letters the serial number of the Luger in question and there was no mention by Datig if it was an American Eagle model or had a "GERMANY" marking. It is mentioned that the "flaming bomb" mark is present in the bottom of the lug well but nowhere else.
It's further noted that the barrel length was longer than other known M1902's and the serial number appeared out of range for this particular model.
Datig goes on to speculate that this particular weapon may have been a prototype sent to the springfield Armory for an informal, albeit unsuccessful, evaluation.
Does anyone know the fate of this particular weapon? Has there been any additional information come to light on this weapon since the publication of Datigs revised book?

2) Were there any other known purchases of Lugers by the U.S. Government? If there was, what was the fate of these weapons (were they destroyed or surplussed)? [I'm aware of the uber-rare .45 cal Lugers]

3) Are there any other verifiable sales of Lugers by the U.S. Government other than the Bannerman sale?

4) I recall reading somewhere that some (as many as 200) of the 1000 M1900AE "Test Lugers" were actually issued to Cavalry Officers for 'field testing'.
Was this true? If it is, might this account for the gaps in serial numbers of the Bannerman Lugers (or the 228 missing "test" Lugers)? Is there any historical references to M1900AE test Lugers being issued to Army Officers in the field (i.e. outside of the controlled testing environment)? Is it possible that IF there were any of the "test Lugers" issued to Army Officers that they may have found their way 'unofficially outside of the military' once it was known that they would not become a standard side arm?

5) Do the M1900AE's that fall in the range of s/n 6100-7100 but NOT part of the Bannerman purchase have ALL of the same attributes as the Bannerman Lugers (i.e. are they identical in every way)?

6) Is there a database of M1900AE's (commercial U.S. market models marked with "GERMANY") with s/n's under 21,000? Is it known what the total number of commercial American Eagles were produced in 1900-01?

7) Why do Texans.....?......er..scratch that one.

8) Are there any production numbers of M1900's (manufactured in 1900-01) used for testing (NOT post adoption weapons or M1900/06) by Austria, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Germany, Luxemburg, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, and Russia?

9) I read on another message board about visitors at gun shows could have their Lugers "upgraded ", for a price, with the "flaming bomb" mark sometime in the early 1960's. Is this a serious case of Alzheimers? I'm quite certain that there is a plentiful variety of unscrupulous collectors and gunsmiths that would entertain this, but why? Eventually, like any other criminal, you'll get fingered.

Answer all of these question to my satisfaction and you win a lifetime supply of beer!
Good luck!

Edward Tinker · 10-10-2007, 10:20 PM

Hell of a lot of questions... Many of these would be answered by buying Test Lugers by Reese; see below for some off the top of my head answers...

1) In Fred Datigs 1958 revised edition of his book ...Does anyone know the fate of this particular weapon? Has there been any additional information come to light on this weapon since the publication of Datigs revised book?
NOT THAT I KNOW OF

2) Were there any other known purchases of Lugers by the U.S. Government? If there was, what was the fate of these weapons (were they destroyed or surplussed)? [I'm aware of the uber-rare .45 cal Lugers]
YES, THE 1000 TEST LUGERS, PLUS SEVERAL OTHERS

3) Are there any other verifiable sales of Lugers by the U.S. Government other than the Bannerman sale?
NONE KNOWN, EXCEPT WHAT IS IN REESES BOOK

4) I recall reading somewhere that some (as many as 200) of the 1000 M1900AE "Test Lugers" were actually issued to Calvery Officers for 'field testing'.
...
UH, THERE WERE 1,000 TEST LUGERS ISSUED THROUGH OUT THE ARMY, ALL OF THESE WERE ISSUED FOR TESTING

5) Do the M1900AE's that fall in the range of s/n 6100-7100 but NOT part of the Bannerman purchase have ALL of the same attributes as the Bannerman Lugers (i.e. are they identical in every way)?
SEE THE MANY THREADS ON THIS, IT IS BEING AND HAS BEEN RESEARCHED, SHORT ANSWER, NO/YES

6) Is there a database of M1900AE's (commercial U.S. market models marked with "GERMANY") with s/n's under 21,000? Is it known what the total number of commercial American Eagles were produced in 1900-01?
FOR THE BEST DATABASE SEE DWIGHT GRUBERS DATABASE HE POSTED HERE ON THE FORUM

7) Why do Texans.....?......er..scratch that one.
DON'T MAKE FUN OF TEXANS, I AM MARRIED TO ONE, AND THE FOREMOST EXPERT ON EARLY LUGERS IS A TEXAN

8) Are there any production numbers of M1900's (manufactured in 1900-01) used for testing (NOT post adoption weapons or M1900/06) by Austria, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Germany, Luxemburg, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, and Russia?
I HAVE NO CLUE

9) I read on another message board about visitors at gun shows could have their Lugers "upgraded ", for a price, with the "flaming bomb" mark sometime in the early 1960's. Is this a serious case of Alzheimers? I'm quite certain that there is a plentiful variety of unscrupulous collectors and gunsmiths that would entertain this, but why? Eventually, like any other criminal, you'll get fingered.
THE FLAMING BOMB USED TO BE THOUGHT TO EQUAL TEST LUGER, IT DOES NOT

Answer all of these question to my satisfaction and you win a lifetime supply of beer!
I HATE BEER

Dwight Gruber · 10-10-2007, 10:30 PM

1. This gun was discussed at length on Jan Still's Luger Forum. Although the original discussion has been lost, much information was repeated in this discussion: http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...chTerms=10030B

Although much information in Datig has been superceded over the past 50 years, it would be a mistake to dismiss him out of hand. Much of the fundamental basis of his work is sound, his book requires reading with an experienced eye.

2. Not sure if I understand. Aside from the early prototypes and the 1,000 Test Eagle guns,, the US did not actually "buy" any other Parabellums. The .45 guns were supplied by DWM, they were not bought. The 50 Cartridge Counter guns were obtained on a 1-for-1 basis by return of 50 of the .30 Test Eagles.

3. The 50 Test Eagles returned in trade for the Cartridge Counters were shipped directly to A.H. Funke, a sporting goods retailer in New York, expressly at the behest of Hans Tauscher, DWM's exclusive agent in the U.S.

4. 900 Lugers were issued into the field for trials, most of them to cavalry units--5 pistols to each unit. They were mostly sent to units assigned to the Phillipines, Cuba, and forts in the American western frontier. 100 guns were retained by the Springfield Armory for testing. They were issued to troops in the field for use testing, not officers or controlled testing environments.

An officer or other trooper stealing one of these guns in unlikely. The cavalry's response to the tests was overwhelmingly negative.

5. See this essay http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...st+eagle+issue for a detailed analysis of Test Eagle characteristics in comparison with other 1900 AE production.

6. The most current version of the DWM Commercial Database can be downloaded here DWM Commercial Database v2 It is quite a large file, and will take some time to download if you are on dialup.

The number of American Eagle Lugers actually produced is speculated upon, but unknown.

9. There is no accounting for the greed of some Luger mechanics, and the gullibility of some Luger collectors. The "flaming bomb" was NOT a characteristic of U.S. Test Lugers. A DWM inspector mark--a circle with some curved lines at the top--is superficially similar to the Flaming Bomb U.S. ordinance mark. It is, however, smaller, and differs in detail. It is a common DWM inspector's mark, found commonly in various places on Lugers produced from 1900 well into the 1906 New Model series.

--Dwight

Well, Ed beat me to the punch here, but I like beer!

LugerVern · 10-11-2007, 12:53 AM

General Comment:

DwightÃ¢??s Commercial Database & Commentary is a work of art IMO and both are quite precious in the amount of information they contain. If you havenÃ¢??t had time to read the commentary please do so, truly enlightening to the beginner & experienced luger collector, no matter what you collect.

There are some very informed collectors that hang out on this forum (I disagree with them sometimes) but truth is that their knowledge has saved me thousands of dollars in avoiding fakes, be careful making a bet with them.

Vern

2grimjim · 10-11-2007, 12:09 PM

Found the Reese book on Amazon (It's on my wish list now). Wasn't able to locate Jan Still's new book on Amazon. Any hints on where to find it?

The Simsonlugers.com website doesn't seem to be up right now. Cached verson dosen't seem to work well either. Is there a mirror website?

Will get a look on gunboards forum later tonight.

Sent email to Ron. I have another early Luger in the family I'll post pics as soon as I visit my cousin.

And NO! I'm not going to tell anyone what it is yet.

Out of time, be back later.

Edward Tinker · 10-11-2007, 01:06 PM

The Reese book is a good one, small but informative. Jan Still's book is being printed as we "speak" and will be out in a couple of months.

Ed

10-10-2007, 07:14 PM	#1
2grimjim User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Western Colorado Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What is the fate of M1902 s/n 10030B? Ok, all knowledgable ones, I have a challenge for you! Now that I've found a source of reliable data on early Lugers I would like to hear from anyone interested, an answer or opinion to one or all of these questions; 1) In Fred Datigs 1958 revised edition of his book "The Luger Pistol" (I know, I know! I can allready hear the howling! It's 50 years out of date info) on pg.239 the author recalls a story of someone that contacted him after the first edition of his book was published in 1955. A collector informed him of a M1902 that was sold to a family member (Dr. Earl D. Fuller) by the Springfield Armory on Nov. 7 1913. The collector had an original Bill of Sale dated June 3 1910 that was from the Springfild Army and approved by the Secretary of War. There were a total of six corrospondences from the War Depatrment, House of Representatives, and the Springfield Armory reprinted in Datigs book detailing the sale transaction of a 9mm Luger, two magazines, and 500 rounds of ammunition to Dr. Fuller. It's not stated in the in any of the letters the serial number of the Luger in question and there was no mention by Datig if it was an American Eagle model or had a "GERMANY" marking. It is mentioned that the "flaming bomb" mark is present in the bottom of the lug well but nowhere else. It's further noted that the barrel length was longer than other known M1902's and the serial number appeared out of range for this particular model. Datig goes on to speculate that this particular weapon may have been a prototype sent to the springfield Armory for an informal, albeit unsuccessful, evaluation. Does anyone know the fate of this particular weapon? Has there been any additional information come to light on this weapon since the publication of Datigs revised book? 2) Were there any other known purchases of Lugers by the U.S. Government? If there was, what was the fate of these weapons (were they destroyed or surplussed)? [I'm aware of the uber-rare .45 cal Lugers] 3) Are there any other verifiable sales of Lugers by the U.S. Government other than the Bannerman sale? 4) I recall reading somewhere that some (as many as 200) of the 1000 M1900AE "Test Lugers" were actually issued to Cavalry Officers for 'field testing'. Was this true? If it is, might this account for the gaps in serial numbers of the Bannerman Lugers (or the 228 missing "test" Lugers)? Is there any historical references to M1900AE test Lugers being issued to Army Officers in the field (i.e. outside of the controlled testing environment)? Is it possible that IF there were any of the "test Lugers" issued to Army Officers that they may have found their way 'unofficially outside of the military' once it was known that they would not become a standard side arm? 5) Do the M1900AE's that fall in the range of s/n 6100-7100 but NOT part of the Bannerman purchase have ALL of the same attributes as the Bannerman Lugers (i.e. are they identical in every way)? 6) Is there a database of M1900AE's (commercial U.S. market models marked with "GERMANY") with s/n's under 21,000? Is it known what the total number of commercial American Eagles were produced in 1900-01? 7) Why do Texans.....?......er..scratch that one. 8) Are there any production numbers of M1900's (manufactured in 1900-01) used for testing (NOT post adoption weapons or M1900/06) by Austria, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Germany, Luxemburg, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, and Russia? 9) I read on another message board about visitors at gun shows could have their Lugers "upgraded ", for a price, with the "flaming bomb" mark sometime in the early 1960's. Is this a serious case of Alzheimers? I'm quite certain that there is a plentiful variety of unscrupulous collectors and gunsmiths that would entertain this, but why? Eventually, like any other criminal, you'll get fingered. Answer all of these question to my satisfaction and you win a lifetime supply of beer! Good luck!

10-10-2007, 10:20 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Re: What is the fate of M1902 s/n 10030B? Hell of a lot of questions... Many of these would be answered by buying Test Lugers by Reese; see below for some off the top of my head answers... 1) In Fred Datigs 1958 revised edition of his book ...Does anyone know the fate of this particular weapon? Has there been any additional information come to light on this weapon since the publication of Datigs revised book? NOT THAT I KNOW OF 2) Were there any other known purchases of Lugers by the U.S. Government? If there was, what was the fate of these weapons (were they destroyed or surplussed)? [I'm aware of the uber-rare .45 cal Lugers] YES, THE 1000 TEST LUGERS, PLUS SEVERAL OTHERS 3) Are there any other verifiable sales of Lugers by the U.S. Government other than the Bannerman sale? NONE KNOWN, EXCEPT WHAT IS IN REESES BOOK 4) I recall reading somewhere that some (as many as 200) of the 1000 M1900AE "Test Lugers" were actually issued to Calvery Officers for 'field testing'. ... UH, THERE WERE 1,000 TEST LUGERS ISSUED THROUGH OUT THE ARMY, ALL OF THESE WERE ISSUED FOR TESTING 5) Do the M1900AE's that fall in the range of s/n 6100-7100 but NOT part of the Bannerman purchase have ALL of the same attributes as the Bannerman Lugers (i.e. are they identical in every way)? SEE THE MANY THREADS ON THIS, IT IS BEING AND HAS BEEN RESEARCHED, SHORT ANSWER, NO/YES 6) Is there a database of M1900AE's (commercial U.S. market models marked with "GERMANY") with s/n's under 21,000? Is it known what the total number of commercial American Eagles were produced in 1900-01? FOR THE BEST DATABASE SEE DWIGHT GRUBERS DATABASE HE POSTED HERE ON THE FORUM 7) Why do Texans.....?......er..scratch that one. DON'T MAKE FUN OF TEXANS, I AM MARRIED TO ONE, AND THE FOREMOST EXPERT ON EARLY LUGERS IS A TEXAN 8) Are there any production numbers of M1900's (manufactured in 1900-01) used for testing (NOT post adoption weapons or M1900/06) by Austria, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Germany, Luxemburg, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, and Russia? I HAVE NO CLUE 9) I read on another message board about visitors at gun shows could have their Lugers "upgraded ", for a price, with the "flaming bomb" mark sometime in the early 1960's. Is this a serious case of Alzheimers? I'm quite certain that there is a plentiful variety of unscrupulous collectors and gunsmiths that would entertain this, but why? Eventually, like any other criminal, you'll get fingered. THE FLAMING BOMB USED TO BE THOUGHT TO EQUAL TEST LUGER, IT DOES NOT Answer all of these question to my satisfaction and you win a lifetime supply of beer! I HATE BEER __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-11-2007, 12:09 PM	#5
2grimjim User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Western Colorado Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Found the Reese book on Amazon (It's on my wish list now). Wasn't able to locate Jan Still's new book on Amazon. Any hints on where to find it? The Simsonlugers.com website doesn't seem to be up right now. Cached verson dosen't seem to work well either. Is there a mirror website? Will get a look on gunboards forum later tonight. Sent email to Ron. I have another early Luger in the family I'll post pics as soon as I visit my cousin. And NO! I'm not going to tell anyone what it is yet. Out of time, be back later. __________________ Why does everything that's fun have to offend so many people?

10-11-2007, 01:06 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	The Reese book is a good one, small but informative. Jan Still's book is being printed as we "speak" and will be out in a couple of months. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-10-2007, 10:30 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	1. This gun was discussed at length on Jan Still's Luger Forum. Although the original discussion has been lost, much information was repeated in this discussion: http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...chTerms=10030B Although much information in Datig has been superceded over the past 50 years, it would be a mistake to dismiss him out of hand. Much of the fundamental basis of his work is sound, his book requires reading with an experienced eye. 2. Not sure if I understand. Aside from the early prototypes and the 1,000 Test Eagle guns,, the US did not actually "buy" any other Parabellums. The .45 guns were supplied by DWM, they were not bought. The 50 Cartridge Counter guns were obtained on a 1-for-1 basis by return of 50 of the .30 Test Eagles. 3. The 50 Test Eagles returned in trade for the Cartridge Counters were shipped directly to A.H. Funke, a sporting goods retailer in New York, expressly at the behest of Hans Tauscher, DWM's exclusive agent in the U.S. 4. 900 Lugers were issued into the field for trials, most of them to cavalry units--5 pistols to each unit. They were mostly sent to units assigned to the Phillipines, Cuba, and forts in the American western frontier. 100 guns were retained by the Springfield Armory for testing. They were issued to troops in the field for use testing, not officers or controlled testing environments. An officer or other trooper stealing one of these guns in unlikely. The cavalry's response to the tests was overwhelmingly negative. 5. See this essay http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...st+eagle+issue for a detailed analysis of Test Eagle characteristics in comparison with other 1900 AE production. 6. The most current version of the DWM Commercial Database can be downloaded here DWM Commercial Database v2 It is quite a large file, and will take some time to download if you are on dialup. The number of American Eagle Lugers actually produced is speculated upon, but unknown. 9. There is no accounting for the greed of some Luger mechanics, and the gullibility of some Luger collectors. The "flaming bomb" was *NOT* a characteristic of U.S. Test Lugers. A DWM inspector mark--a circle with some curved lines at the top--is superficially similar to the Flaming Bomb U.S. ordinance mark. It is, however, smaller, and differs in detail. It is a common DWM inspector's mark, found commonly in various places on Lugers produced from 1900 well into the 1906 New Model series. --Dwight Well, Ed beat me to the punch here, but I like beer!

10-11-2007, 12:53 AM	#4
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	General Comment: DwightÃ¢??s Commercial Database & Commentary is a work of art IMO and both are quite precious in the amount of information they contain. If you havenÃ¢??t had time to read the commentary please do so, truly enlightening to the beginner & experienced luger collector, no matter what you collect. There are some very informed collectors that hang out on this forum (I disagree with them sometimes) but truth is that their knowledge has saved me thousands of dollars in avoiding fakes, be careful making a bet with them. Vern