French Luger

10e.licorne · 11-17-2005, 01:51 PM

a new article in french on "gazette des armes" written by Luc Guillou said :
"the Parabellum sold between 1909 to 1914 by The Manufacture de Saint Etienne has the same characterics as the 1906 model made by DWM.

It was sold under the ref 38 from 1909 to 1911 for 7,65 barrel length 120mm and 9 mm barrel length 100mm

In 1912 the ref 38 is only used for the 7,65 ...and ref 41 for the 9mm until 1914

You may find a specific serial number (st. etienne) on the bottom
the "Manufacture franÃ?Â§aise d'armes et de cycles de St Etienne" on the barrel.

I have some trouble with my scan. I will post a new topic as soon as possible with this article,

best regards,

jm sorriaux

Vlim · 11-17-2005, 04:51 PM

Jim,

Makes sense. Neither the Parabellum nor the ammo were sold by 'Manufacture Francaise" in 1907. I have that 1907 catalog.

Would be interesting to see the entire article.

Ron Wood · 11-17-2005, 05:13 PM

I would be particularly interested in the extractor marking if the article includes that information. It is my understanding the 1906 "Manufacture franÃ?Â§aise d'armes et de cycles de St Etienne" marked Lugers had a GESICHERT marked extractor, unlike the 1903/04 transitional model with the CHARGÃ?? marked extractor.

cirelaw · 11-17-2005, 05:25 PM

ERIC HERE IM WILLING TO SEND MY 1906 FRENCH D'ARMES SERIAL # 51872, TO RON OR ED, FOR ON HANDS EXAMINATION, THE UNDERSIDE OF THE BARREL IS A STORY IN ITS OWN, CROWNS ETC, ID LIKE TO SHARE THIS "FRENCH NOVEL" IN PERSON, IN YOUR HAND, SHES A BEAUTY, BUT LIKE MOST ORPHANS, SHE SEEKS HER PAST, PS YOUR PHOTOS ARE OUTSTANDING, I WISH WE HAD YOU AT OUR WEDDDING, ERIC BRUNING, ESQ (772(336-5312 OH MERCI BEACOUP, MON AMIE,

cirelaw · 11-17-2005, 06:04 PM

MY 1906?? #51872 'MANUFATUREFRACAIS ARMS&CYCLES HAS A 'CHARGE' MUCH LIKE THE 1903 SHOWN IN RANDOM, I COULD ONLY GET A BLURR,

10e.licorne · 11-17-2005, 11:47 PM

I espect to be able to scan this article this week
any information will be appreciate to send it to the author
best regards and tanks for your french "merci beaucoup" and sorry for english (I have change my computer an loose my translator)
jm sorriaux

cirelaw · 11-18-2005, 08:20 AM

SONJOUR, CA VA BIEN, AVE VOUS UN ADDREES EMAUL, PAS QUE, JEV VOIDRAIS UN VACACACE, POR ENSEMLE MON STEP NEICE ET MA LAMOUR PREMIER DOMONJQUE, JAI UNE TETE DE CON, APRES 35 ANEES, ELL LIVRE MON TRAVAILLE AVEC LES POURVE FAMILYS, AVEC 'STOKE/ COMAM SHE TOLD ME THAT THERES STILL GERMAN ITEMS STACHED AWAY, AS SOMTIMES THEIR SOULMONT GUIRRE WAS LUGERS, FOR WHICH THEY WEWERE,RECLAIMED BY THEV "BARBIE BOYS" MERE COLLECTION, MEANT EXECUTION, FOR 2 REASONS, 'SECRETLY SELF DEFENCE/ UNLIFE FIRARMS OF THE VICHY, AFTER I RECOVER BETTER IM GOING OVER, TO COLLECT THE RAREST RIFLES, OF WHICH I OOW ONE RARETY' A "WALTHER, HITLER YOUTH 22L TRAINER WITH 'HL &RM ON STOCK WITH AN, "OLGEE BERLIN SCOPE"DO YOU LIVE IN FRANCE, IF SO WHERE. YOUR NOT PARISIAN I PRAY/ OH MONDIUR ERIC BRUNING772-336-5312 TKS PLEASE EMAIL "SNOOKEM13@AOL.COM. MERCI BIEN VOYAGE PS HAVE THE FRENCH STOPPED MORNING , "JERRRY"

Lugerdoc · 11-18-2005, 09:19 AM

Cirelaw, All of your CAP letters are making me dizzy. Th

LU1900 · 11-18-2005, 09:50 AM

...........

LU1900 · 11-18-2005, 09:53 AM

...........

Ron Wood · 11-18-2005, 02:26 PM

Thank you Pat. That is what I thought to be correct.
This is my 1903 French:

LU1900 · 11-18-2005, 06:44 PM

...........

the gunman · 11-18-2005, 07:21 PM

Ron that is a thing of beauty . Like we signed in our "old school" autographs books.
I,N,V,Y

Vlim · 11-19-2005, 09:16 AM

Ron,

Lovely gun. I'm still puzzled why there are 'St. Etienne' marked 1903 lugers, while there is no trace of any ads in their period catalogs.

I'm starting to wonder whether the French were used to ditch surplus 'old model' lugers onto the market after 1908.

Lugerdoc · 11-19-2005, 09:59 AM

Ron, It's difficult to tell from your photo, if this barrel is of the M1902 "Fat" type, or if it even has a band under the front sight base. How about a close up photo of that area. Thanks, Tom

Ron Wood · 11-19-2005, 11:40 AM

Tom,
It is similar to the 1902 Fat Barrel in that the "step" for the front sight band is very small, but the diameter of the barrel is not as large as the 1902 possibly because the '03 is 7.65mm. I have cropped out an image of the front sight and adjusted the colors a bit to make it more visable. Hope this helps.

Ron Wood · 11-20-2005, 11:17 AM

Gerben,
I just read your post a little more carefully. The 1903 French Luger was not marked "...St. Etienne". The only French marking is CHARGÃ?? on the extractor. The 1903 was a very limited production piece, perhaps as an attempt at entry into the French market, and my not have been marketed by armes et de cycles de St Etienne. Hence, the appearance of Lugers in their catalogs did not occur until they actually started to sell them around 1909. I don't think there was any need to ditch '06 models in France since the '06 pattern remained popular and continued to be manufactured well after the '08 model was introduced, with the serial number ranges overlaping considerably.

Vlim · 11-21-2005, 08:35 AM

Ron,

Aha. That makes sense. The only other way a 'st Etienne' marked 1903 would make sense is that they sold them after 1909, which according to your 1903 at least, didn't happen.

Apart from 'Manufacture Francaise' selling the 1906 patter commercially, there is one other good reason for a 'French' luger to exist. This mainly has to do with French patent laws, which dicitated that only designs could be patented in France if they were actually built there.

Maxim, for example, had a machinegun built by a French company, so he could have the design protected over there (mentioned in his autobiography). I'm pretty sure DWM would have done the same thing with the Luger design.

I'm still confident, however, that 1903 Lugers with a French 'charge' marking should not have a 'St. Etienne' marking.

mauro · 11-21-2005, 03:52 PM

Hello Friends,
Hereafter some more photos of the 1906 DWM "Manufacture Francaise d'Armes et Cycles de Saint Etienne" both in 9mm and 7.65, that I have took some years ago.
I hope this helps.
Ciao
Mauro

cirelaw · 12-28-2005, 04:21 PM

ERIC, i.m trying to find out, why, and how are the french "'charge." on extractor lugers are related, if, because both were obviously manufactured to be used to sell to a french, entity, around this time, old 'george-boy' put an eagle to sell, or appeal to the us military, our national symbol, ill check with, my amies de francais, to verify the "fleurs" flower on at least one 1906 and none yet, that, im aware on the 1903, prior prototype, check out kenyon, and herrotin, the herrotin, 1906 has 'les fleur" ps wheres jerry lewis, when you need him? .a french,' je ne sais, qua? eric, esq ps no caps!

11-17-2005, 01:51 PM	#1
10e.licorne User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: near Perpignan in France Posts: 85 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	French Luger a new article in french on "gazette des armes" written by Luc Guillou said : "the Parabellum sold between 1909 to 1914 by The Manufacture de Saint Etienne has the same characterics as the 1906 model made by DWM. It was sold under the ref 38 from 1909 to 1911 for 7,65 barrel length 120mm and 9 mm barrel length 100mm In 1912 the ref 38 is only used for the 7,65 ...and ref 41 for the 9mm until 1914 You may find a specific serial number (st. etienne) on the bottom the "Manufacture franÃ?Â§aise d'armes et de cycles de St Etienne" on the barrel. I have some trouble with my scan. I will post a new topic as soon as possible with this article, best regards, jm sorriaux __________________ d'nt say i will do it .... do it

11-17-2005, 05:13 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I would be particularly interested in the extractor marking if the article includes that information. It is my understanding the 1906 "Manufacture franÃ?Â§aise d'armes et de cycles de St Etienne" marked Lugers had a GESICHERT marked extractor, unlike the 1903/04 transitional model with the CHARGÃ?? marked extractor. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-17-2005, 11:47 PM	#6
10e.licorne User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: near Perpignan in France Posts: 85 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I espect to be able to scan this article this week any information will be appreciate to send it to the author best regards and tanks for your french "merci beaucoup" and sorry for english (I have change my computer an loose my translator) jm sorriaux __________________ d'nt say i will do it .... do it

11-18-2005, 09:19 AM	#8
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Cirelaw, All of your CAP letters are making me dizzy. Th __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-18-2005, 09:50 AM	#9
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 900 Thanks: 35 Thanked 461 Times in 193 Posts	........... __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

11-17-2005, 04:51 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Jim, Makes sense. Neither the Parabellum nor the ammo were sold by 'Manufacture Francaise" in 1907. I have that 1907 catalog. Would be interesting to see the entire article.

11-17-2005, 05:25 PM	#4
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	ERIC HERE IM WILLING TO SEND MY 1906 FRENCH D'ARMES SERIAL # 51872, TO RON OR ED, FOR ON HANDS EXAMINATION, THE UNDERSIDE OF THE BARREL IS A STORY IN ITS OWN, CROWNS ETC, ID LIKE TO SHARE THIS "FRENCH NOVEL" IN PERSON, IN YOUR HAND, SHES A BEAUTY, BUT LIKE MOST ORPHANS, SHE SEEKS HER PAST, PS YOUR PHOTOS ARE OUTSTANDING, I WISH WE HAD YOU AT OUR WEDDDING, ERIC BRUNING, ESQ (772(336-5312 OH MERCI BEACOUP, MON AMIE,

11-17-2005, 06:04 PM	#5
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	MY 1906?? #51872 'MANUFATUREFRACAIS ARMS&CYCLES HAS A 'CHARGE' MUCH LIKE THE 1903 SHOWN IN RANDOM, I COULD ONLY GET A BLURR,

11-18-2005, 08:20 AM	#7
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	SONJOUR, CA VA BIEN, AVE VOUS UN ADDREES EMAUL, PAS QUE, JEV VOIDRAIS UN VACACACE, POR ENSEMLE MON STEP NEICE ET MA LAMOUR PREMIER DOMONJQUE, JAI UNE TETE DE CON, APRES 35 ANEES, ELL LIVRE MON TRAVAILLE AVEC LES POURVE FAMILYS, AVEC 'STOKE/ COMAM SHE TOLD ME THAT THERES STILL GERMAN ITEMS STACHED AWAY, AS SOMTIMES THEIR SOULMONT GUIRRE WAS LUGERS, FOR WHICH THEY WEWERE,RECLAIMED BY THEV "BARBIE BOYS" MERE COLLECTION, MEANT EXECUTION, FOR 2 REASONS, 'SECRETLY SELF DEFENCE/ UNLIFE FIRARMS OF THE VICHY, AFTER I RECOVER BETTER IM GOING OVER, TO COLLECT THE RAREST RIFLES, OF WHICH I OOW ONE RARETY' A "WALTHER, HITLER YOUTH 22L TRAINER WITH 'HL &RM ON STOCK WITH AN, "OLGEE BERLIN SCOPE"DO YOU LIVE IN FRANCE, IF SO WHERE. YOUR NOT PARISIAN I PRAY/ OH MONDIUR ERIC BRUNING772-336-5312 TKS PLEASE EMAIL "SNOOKEM13@AOL.COM. MERCI BIEN VOYAGE PS HAVE THE FRENCH STOPPED MORNING , "JERRRY"

11-18-2005, 09:53 AM	#10
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 900 Thanks: 35 Thanked 461 Times in 193 Posts	........... __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

11-18-2005, 02:26 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Thank you Pat. That is what I thought to be correct. This is my 1903 French: __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-18-2005, 06:44 PM	#12
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 900 Thanks: 35 Thanked 461 Times in 193 Posts	........... __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

11-18-2005, 07:21 PM	#13
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Ron that is a thing of beauty . Like we signed in our "old school" autographs books. I,N,V,Y

11-19-2005, 09:16 AM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Ron, Lovely gun. I'm still puzzled why there are 'St. Etienne' marked 1903 lugers, while there is no trace of any ads in their period catalogs. I'm starting to wonder whether the French were used to ditch surplus 'old model' lugers onto the market after 1908.

11-19-2005, 09:59 AM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Ron, It's difficult to tell from your photo, if this barrel is of the M1902 "Fat" type, or if it even has a band under the front sight base. How about a close up photo of that area. Thanks, Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-19-2005, 11:40 AM	#16
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Tom, It is similar to the 1902 Fat Barrel in that the "step" for the front sight band is very small, but the diameter of the barrel is not as large as the 1902 possibly because the '03 is 7.65mm. I have cropped out an image of the front sight and adjusted the colors a bit to make it more visable. Hope this helps. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-20-2005, 11:17 AM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Gerben, I just read your post a little more carefully. The 1903 French Luger was not marked "...St. Etienne". The only French marking is CHARGÃ?? on the extractor. The 1903 was a very limited production piece, perhaps as an attempt at entry into the French market, and my not have been marketed by armes et de cycles de St Etienne. Hence, the appearance of Lugers in their catalogs did not occur until they actually started to sell them around 1909. I don't think there was any need to ditch '06 models in France since the '06 pattern remained popular and continued to be manufactured well after the '08 model was introduced, with the serial number ranges overlaping considerably. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-21-2005, 08:35 AM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Ron, Aha. That makes sense. The only other way a 'st Etienne' marked 1903 would make sense is that they sold them after 1909, which according to your 1903 at least, didn't happen. Apart from 'Manufacture Francaise' selling the 1906 patter commercially, there is one other good reason for a 'French' luger to exist. This mainly has to do with French patent laws, which dicitated that only designs could be patented in France if they were actually built there. Maxim, for example, had a machinegun built by a French company, so he could have the design protected over there (mentioned in his autobiography). I'm pretty sure DWM would have done the same thing with the Luger design. I'm still confident, however, that 1903 Lugers with a French 'charge' marking should not have a 'St. Etienne' marking.

11-21-2005, 03:52 PM	#19
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello Friends, Hereafter some more photos of the 1906 DWM "Manufacture Francaise d'Armes et Cycles de Saint Etienne" both in 9mm and 7.65, that I have took some years ago. I hope this helps. Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

12-28-2005, 04:21 PM	#20
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	ERIC, i.m trying to find out, why, and how are the french "'charge." on extractor lugers are related, if, because both were obviously manufactured to be used to sell to a french, entity, around this time, old 'george-boy' put an eagle to sell, or appeal to the us military, our national symbol, ill check with, my amies de francais, to verify the "fleurs" flower on at least one 1906 and none yet, that, im aware on the 1903, prior prototype, check out kenyon, and herrotin, the herrotin, 1906 has 'les fleur" ps wheres jerry lewis, when you need him? .a french,' je ne sais, qua? eric, esq ps no caps!