P-38 CYQ year of manufacture and month!

Hi from Australia. I am hoping some one out there may be able to give me the production year and month of a CYQ Spreewerke P-38. I know they did not date them like Walther and Mauser. The number is 1***i .Now from what I can work out from the facts and figures I have read, Spreewerke started production in December 1943 and made roughly 20,000 pistols a month. I have figured that the (i) block was made in April or May of 1944.Can anyone out there tell me if I am correct or the correct year and month for the production of the (i) block.

Itâ??s in excellent condition with a much better finish to it than some Spreewerke P-38 with little machining marks. Itâ??s a pity that a lot of collectors do not favor the Spreewerke P-38â??s as much as the Walther and Mauser oneâ??s. I have owned both Walther and Mauser P-38â??s and have some mixed feeling on both of them and figure most people only go for the name of Walther and Mauser. I have seen some real shocking Walther and Mauser P-38â??s in my time and it was not due to usage, just bad production (pop them out as quick as you can!).

[Marvin]

M,


Your P.38 was made in September 1943, +- one month. Actually, Spreewerk began production in December 1942 almost parallel with Mauser. Walther was responsible for the production of the pistol and the line set-up. Mauser personell were there also to assist in the manufacturing techniques required to produce the pistol. The Mauser folks left in early 1943 and then the finish began to deteriorate. During the early production "no letter" block which began in October 1942 and the first "a" block began in approx. January 1943. The production rate of 20,000 pistols per month is not correct; it was approx. 10,000 per month the same as Walther and Mauser. I feel that you got your information from Gene Gangarosa's book, "P.38 Automatic Pistol", This is an excellent book, but he made a big error on the Spreewerke pistol.


I agree with you that the Spreewerke is underated! It is just as good a pistol as Walther and Mauser when Spreewerke began production. I hope they stay on the low price side for a while so I can get some more economically. the outside finish is not as good, but otherwise they are totally funtional and reliable as any other P.38. Even the US and Britain lowered the quality of the finish on their weapons as the war progressed.


As to the finish as the war progressed, Spreewerke pistols are unpredictable as I have a late war "cyq" and the finish is as good as my mid-1943 pistol. I also have an early "a" block suffix and the finish shows the tool marks quite well on the slide.


If you need more info, please feel free to e-mail me and I will provide what I know. Thanks for coming by the Luger Forum and please come back anytime, we are always glad to have you aboard!


Marvin

[Kyrie]

Hi M,


Alas, there is no way to accurately determine a year/month of manufacture based on serial number. The problem here is we don't know how many pistols any of the manufacturers actually made in any given month. What we do know from surviving records is how many pistols passed inspection and were accepted by the German Army in each month.


"Manufactured" versus "accepted" is an important distinction. The rejection rate for P.38's varied considerably (from an estimated 90% in some months to an estimated 15% in other months) by year/month and manufacturer. Any pistols that were rejected were reworked and submitted for inspection again. So there is no way to know, as an example, how many of the pistols accepted in January of 1945 were actually made in January of 1945. The number of pistols accepted in that year and month would contain some number of pistols rejected from earlier months, and even some pistols returned to the factory for repairs.


Your pistol was likely made sometime in 1943, and probably late (October - December) in that year. But that's just an educated guess :-(


Sorry I was not more help, but it's just not possible with the available information to get any more precise.


Best regards,


Kyrie

Marvin and kyrie. Thank you for your answers to my question/help. Marvin you where right about where I got my information in relation to Spreewerke monthly production number. Geneâ??s book is an excellent book. Like all things with time, if records are lost or not kept then history has a question mark next to it. I thought, that was quite a lot of pistols to be made in one month. But as I had no other references to Spreewerke production numbers this is what I had to go on.

You are quite right about Spreewerke P-38â??s. If I lived in the States I would be buying them up now whilst they are at the cheap price. I am sure with time they will be the same price as Mauser and Walther P-38â??s and in some cases they are already.

Once again thanks for the information.

[G.T.]

Hello M, The books that you need are Buxton's Vol. 1, 2, & 3...These are the definitive work on the P.38! If I had (ANY!) money, I would buy every excellent cyq that I could find, they are one of the last true collectable bargains out there!...Till..Later...G.T.

G.T. I will have a look for these books.You are right on the money with the cyq pistols.Thanks for you help!

[Dok]

of a decent cyq? And could/should someone shoot it?

[G.T.]

I think a real sweet cyq could still be bought for between $400 & $500........the only problem with shooting collectable P.38's is they tend to wear on / in the sear and hammer area. This also shows up in the hammer drop lever where it contacts the sear. You can repair it, but, never with just one component, it is kind of a tricky timing area, and you just have to throw parts at it until it works! I suspect this area of assembly was the cause for many rejected P.38's that the authors called teething problems for Walther and Mauser! Shoot a shooter, collect the collectables! till...later...G.T...... P.S. WW2 P.38's have a nasty habit of losing grip strap blue, FAST! It won't be long and you will notice this area start to thin, it almost seems to thin when you just look at it!

[Marvin]

I agree with GT's assement on the "cyq", a nice conditon shooter should be had for approx. $350-400. There is no problem with shooting the "cyq" P.38s, they are safe! There has been much written concerning the safety of them and I think this is some of the stigma attached to them that keeps the price low. The Germans would not issue bad weapins to their troops. The absolute last few weeks of manufacture at Spreewerke when they used the "U" acceptance stamp may be questionable, because there were no Waffenamt inspectors at the plant in sufficient force to assure the strict German Quality Standards were maintained. Since the Spreewerke Plant was surrounded by the Russian at this time and they could not ship them except to the troops in the area, these are always found in excellent condition.


On a side note, the German Army tested the British Sten gun to see if could be manufactured for their use. They found it of such poor quality and design that they would not make it for their troops or any other German volunteer regiments. They wanted to provide only the best to their troops and they did.


Marvin

Another interesting point is that in terms of total production for the entire war... cyq was the lowest production of the three makers.

[Matt]

My first pistol was a cyq purchased in 1986 for $250. It is in excellent condition except for the finish worn off the gripstrap as G.T. noted is common, although I did not know this until reading his post. It has a four-digit serial number and also is stamped v. Any ideas what year it was made? It's a good shooter and has never jammed but does shoot low and to the left. I don't shoot it much anymore though and have been thinking about buying one of the recent imports for a shooter.

[Marvin]

Matt,


The "v" suffix was made somewhere in the September 1944 range. Due to the many unknowns for Spreewerke, this date could of +- 2 months, but this is close I think. One strange thing about the late Spreewerke pistols, you can get a decent finish this late in the war. I have always contributed this to the person/s or the shift that worked on them.


Marvin

[G.T.]

One feature that was unique to the cyq's was a beautiful even blue, pretty much from start to end......better then the others, I suspect, they still lost it on the grip strap pretty fast, same as most.......Till...later...G.T.

[Matt]

Thanks, Marvin and G.T. for the info. I am looking for an original holster and now I know I'll need a 1944 date. The bluing on mine is excellent although the slide does have the rough tool marks typical of Spreewerke P.38s.