Norwegian-made Luger parts

Balder · 11-30-2006, 03:36 PM

Gentlemen,

As stated in a different post, I have a firing pin with the Kongsberg VÃ?Â¥penfabrikk's crowned K. I wasn't aware of other Luger parts than barrels having been made on this state arsenal, now it turns out that they in deed also produced breech blocks, firing pins, extractors and other small parts. I'll need to look into the markings on these parts, I just wanted to share this (to me) new information.

Balder

Ron Wood · 11-30-2006, 08:38 PM

That is news! Several countries have made magazines and grips, but other than the Swiss and the Dutch, I wasn't aware of other countries making parts for the Luger firing train (Vickers doesn't count!).

Steinar · 12-01-2006, 02:27 AM

Balder, I don't think it's norwegian..
but a Imperial military inspector's mark.I have several firing pins, sideplates etc. with the same mark. First I thought the same as you, but now I lean more over to a ww1 Erfurt spare part.
The logo of Kongsberg vÃ?Â¥penfabrikk is quite simular, but not identical.

Balder · 12-01-2006, 03:08 AM

Morgan,

This was news to me as well, but I have got confirmation from two other sources. I'll keep on looking into it, but I am fairly certain that we are talking Norwegian parts here.

Balder

Steinar · 12-01-2006, 03:34 AM

I have seen sideplates sold here in Norway as Kongsberg produced, with a imperal mark like the one on your firing pin. Such misunderstandings may have caused the reputation of Norwegian parts.. as the marks are very similar!
It may be possible, but I have never seen a Kongsberg marked Luger part yet.

Dwight Gruber · 12-01-2006, 03:34 AM

Steinar,

I think that an Imperial German inspector mark would have been stamped on the firing pin's barrel, and the crown would have three lobes. Also, an Imperial inspection mark wouldn't be expected to be found on a fluted firing pin.

--Dwight

Steinar · 12-01-2006, 03:39 AM

I'm comparing the firing pin mark to a same size Kongsberg mark found on a Kongsberg produced Colt 1911. Can't say it's the same mark..

Steinar · 12-01-2006, 03:42 AM

btw. I hope I'm wrong, it would be kinda neat if they made Luger parts as well

George Anderson · 12-01-2006, 08:35 AM

The mark certainly is not Imperial German. The firing pin is a later type with the vented striking end so it has to have been produced long after the Kaiser went to pick tulips and split wood.

That said, it must be Norwegian.

Lugerdoc · 12-01-2006, 09:27 AM

Dwight & George, If the C/K is indeed from Koinigberg arsenal, it could just be an inspection/instalation mark, as well as indicating their producton. TH

Don M · 12-01-2006, 10:36 AM

Does the fluting really mean anything about date of manufacture? I thought that many older firing pins were fluted at a later date.

Steinar · 12-01-2006, 10:52 AM

I'm not certain about this mark.. It's a little confusing I may admit

Dwight Gruber · 12-01-2006, 01:36 PM

This letter form is not represented in Costanzo. This is not conclusive, but certainly significant.

The inspector marks found on Erfurt parts are clearly three-lobed crowns--the marks pictured are clearly two-lobed.

Erfurt sideplates are found with the inspector stamp and serial number stamped adjacent on the part's face. On the sample above the sideplate appears to be numbered on the bottom edge?...not on the face, in any case. Is there an Imperial inspector stamp on the trigger lever itself?

Allowances need to be made for detail differences in a common stamp due to the abilities of the die cutter, the relative time two dies might be made, or the size of the stamps. I would guess that the sear stamp is smaller than the sideplate stamp, is this so?

I'm not sure that "many" firing pins would have been found fluted at a later date. Personally, I consider fluted firing pins to be post-Imperial manufacture unless other evidence--the presence of an Imperial inspector stamp, for instance--demonstrates otherwise. It would be useful to know if this striker is serial numbered--another helpful (but not decisive, on its own) piece of evidence.

Tom's comment is interesting.

--Dwight

Balder · 12-01-2006, 02:27 PM

Gentlemen,

This is the kind of discussion that makes collecting guns interesting. I have been comparing the mark in question to the Kongsberg mark found on the slides of my three M/1914 pistols (Norwegian licensed M1911s) - they are not identical. However, I think space is an issue here. The space available on the spot on the firing pin where they, for some obscure reason, decided to put the stamp is rather limited. The stamp on the M/1914 slide is definitely more frilly, simply because there's way more space available. Also, the firing pin, if it is Norwegian, must have been made/stamped after WW2; the M/1914 stamp is taken from a pistol produced in 1925. As time passed Kongsberg made their Gothic lettering simpler and more conventionalized.

Another point is the fact that the stock of booty German spare parts at some stage must have dried up. What would be more natural than to produce them at the state arsenal at a time when this country was trying to get back on its feet after five years of occupation? There were no other sources of spare parts for the Luger, with the possible exception of costly Switzerland. The Norwegian army and air force kept the Luger and the Walther P-38 as standard sidearms until the adoption of the Glock 17 in the early 80's. The need for spare parts is quite obvious.

I just sent an email to the Kongsberg Arsenal, I'll come back with more information when I get a response.

Dwight,

The firing pin is not marked in any other way.

Balder

Balder · 12-08-2006, 02:54 AM

Gentlemen,

After checking with the Kongsberg Arsenal, there is so far no written proof that any other Luger parts than barrels have been made there. The crowned K seems to be Kongsberg's and was probably put on spare parts that were installed during a factory overhaul. Where these parts came from is still unknown - they may be ex-German from WW2, another possibility is that Lugers were cannibalized. There were huge amounts of German guns taken as war booty in 1945. I'll keep on looking into this.

Balder

Steinar · 12-08-2006, 03:26 AM

The firing pins I found with the same mark are also in the black.

Reminds me of the "parkerisering" (form of bluing method, the English word has popped out of my mind) found on our military (A)G3 rifles. The norwegian army's G3 rifles are produced in Kongsberg, with the exception of some stamped metal parts such as grip casing and the metal on stock..
Perhaps these firing pins has gone trough some sort of control on behalf of the military. To be stamped and 'blued' in the Kongsberg factory. ..just as a proof of liability? ..without being made there?

Balder; did Kongsberg see the mark and confirmed that it was a 'Kongsberg mark'?

John Sabato · 12-08-2006, 10:43 PM

Steinar, the correct term for the "blue" finish you are talking about is "parkerized" which is a phosphate finish for ferrous metals that inhibits rust. It is commonly used on military firearms and is very durable. It can be accomplished in various colors, but the common colors are grey, black, and dark green...

Dwight Gruber · 12-09-2006, 01:12 AM

The generic term for the durable matte finish is " phosphate/phosphated". "Parkerized" (properly written capitalized) is a patented method of phosphating and can only properly be used when referring to guns finished by the Parkerize method. </pedantic mode OFF>

--Dwight

John Sabato · 12-10-2006, 09:13 PM

Gosh Dwight... I married one of them there English teachers... I thought the Lugerforum was the one place I could get by without that kind of on-the-spot correction of my typing syntax!

It happens around the house ALL the time!

Balder · 12-11-2006, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Morgan Kane
The firing pins I found with the same mark are also in the black.

Reminds me of the "parkerisering" (form of bluing method, ........

Balder; did Kongsberg see the mark and confirmed that it was a 'Kongsberg mark'?

Morgan,

The pin in question is blued, not parkerized. The crowned K is Kongberg's stamp.
Balder

11-30-2006, 03:36 PM	#1
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	Norwegian-made Luger parts Gentlemen, As stated in a different post, I have a firing pin with the Kongsberg VÃ?Â¥penfabrikk's crowned K. I wasn't aware of other Luger parts than barrels having been made on this state arsenal, now it turns out that they in deed also produced breech blocks, firing pins, extractors and other small parts. I'll need to look into the markings on these parts, I just wanted to share this (to me) new information. Balder

11-30-2006, 08:38 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	That is news! Several countries have made magazines and grips, but other than the Swiss and the Dutch, I wasn't aware of other countries making parts for the Luger firing train (Vickers doesn't count!). __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-01-2006, 02:27 AM	#3
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Balder, I don't think it's norwegian.. but a Imperial military inspector's mark.I have several firing pins, sideplates etc. with the same mark. First I thought the same as you, but now I lean more over to a ww1 Erfurt spare part. The logo of Kongsberg vÃ?Â¥penfabrikk is quite simular, but not identical. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

12-01-2006, 03:34 AM	#5
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	I have seen sideplates sold here in Norway as Kongsberg produced, with a imperal mark like the one on your firing pin. Such misunderstandings may have caused the reputation of Norwegian parts.. as the marks are very similar! It may be possible, but I have never seen a Kongsberg marked Luger part yet. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

12-01-2006, 03:39 AM	#7
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	I'm comparing the firing pin mark to a same size Kongsberg mark found on a Kongsberg produced Colt 1911. Can't say it's the same mark.. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

12-01-2006, 03:08 AM	#4
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	Morgan, This was news to me as well, but I have got confirmation from two other sources. I'll keep on looking into it, but I am fairly certain that we are talking Norwegian parts here. Balder

12-01-2006, 03:34 AM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Steinar, I think that an Imperial German inspector mark would have been stamped on the firing pin's barrel, and the crown would have three lobes. Also, an Imperial inspection mark wouldn't be expected to be found on a fluted firing pin. --Dwight

12-01-2006, 03:42 AM	#8
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	btw. I hope I'm wrong, it would be kinda neat if they made Luger parts as well __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

12-01-2006, 08:35 AM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,771 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	The mark certainly is not Imperial German. The firing pin is a later type with the vented striking end so it has to have been produced long after the Kaiser went to pick tulips and split wood. That said, it must be Norwegian.

12-01-2006, 09:27 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Dwight & George, If the C/K is indeed from Koinigberg arsenal, it could just be an inspection/instalation mark, as well as indicating their producton. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-01-2006, 10:36 AM	#11
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Does the fluting really mean anything about date of manufacture? I thought that many older firing pins were fluted at a later date. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

12-01-2006, 10:52 AM	#12
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	I'm not certain about this mark.. It's a little confusing I may admit __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

12-01-2006, 01:36 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	This letter form is not represented in Costanzo. This is not conclusive, but certainly significant. The inspector marks found on Erfurt parts are clearly three-lobed crowns--the marks pictured are clearly two-lobed. Erfurt sideplates are found with the inspector stamp and serial number stamped adjacent on the part's face. On the sample above the sideplate appears to be numbered on the bottom edge?...not on the face, in any case. Is there an Imperial inspector stamp on the trigger lever itself? Allowances need to be made for detail differences in a common stamp due to the abilities of the die cutter, the relative time two dies might be made, or the size of the stamps. I would guess that the sear stamp is smaller than the sideplate stamp, is this so? I'm not sure that "many" firing pins would have been found fluted at a later date. Personally, I consider fluted firing pins to be post-Imperial manufacture unless other evidence--the presence of an Imperial inspector stamp, for instance--demonstrates otherwise. It would be useful to know if this striker is serial numbered--another helpful (but not decisive, on its own) piece of evidence. Tom's comment is interesting. --Dwight

12-01-2006, 02:27 PM	#14
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	Gentlemen, This is the kind of discussion that makes collecting guns interesting. I have been comparing the mark in question to the Kongsberg mark found on the slides of my three M/1914 pistols (Norwegian licensed M1911s) - they are not identical. However, I think space is an issue here. The space available on the spot on the firing pin where they, for some obscure reason, decided to put the stamp is rather limited. The stamp on the M/1914 slide is definitely more frilly, simply because there's way more space available. Also, the firing pin, if it is Norwegian, must have been made/stamped after WW2; the M/1914 stamp is taken from a pistol produced in 1925. As time passed Kongsberg made their Gothic lettering simpler and more conventionalized. Another point is the fact that the stock of booty German spare parts at some stage must have dried up. What would be more natural than to produce them at the state arsenal at a time when this country was trying to get back on its feet after five years of occupation? There were no other sources of spare parts for the Luger, with the possible exception of costly Switzerland. The Norwegian army and air force kept the Luger and the Walther P-38 as standard sidearms until the adoption of the Glock 17 in the early 80's. The need for spare parts is quite obvious. I just sent an email to the Kongsberg Arsenal, I'll come back with more information when I get a response. Dwight, The firing pin is not marked in any other way. Balder

12-08-2006, 02:54 AM	#15
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	Gentlemen, After checking with the Kongsberg Arsenal, there is so far no written proof that any other Luger parts than barrels have been made there. The crowned K seems to be Kongsberg's and was probably put on spare parts that were installed during a factory overhaul. Where these parts came from is still unknown - they may be ex-German from WW2, another possibility is that Lugers were cannibalized. There were huge amounts of German guns taken as war booty in 1945. I'll keep on looking into this. Balder

12-08-2006, 03:26 AM	#16
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	The firing pins I found with the same mark are also in the black. Reminds me of the "parkerisering" (form of bluing method, the English word has popped out of my mind) found on our military (A)G3 rifles. The norwegian army's G3 rifles are produced in Kongsberg, with the exception of some stamped metal parts such as grip casing and the metal on stock.. Perhaps these firing pins has gone trough some sort of control on behalf of the military. To be stamped and 'blued' in the Kongsberg factory. ..just as a proof of liability? ..without being made there? Balder; did Kongsberg see the mark and confirmed that it was a 'Kongsberg mark'? __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

12-08-2006, 10:43 PM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Parkerizing Steinar, the correct term for the "blue" finish you are talking about is "parkerized" which is a phosphate finish for ferrous metals that inhibits rust. It is commonly used on military firearms and is very durable. It can be accomplished in various colors, but the common colors are grey, black, and dark green... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-09-2006, 01:12 AM	#18
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	The generic term for the durable matte finish is " phosphate/phosphated". "Parkerized" (properly written capitalized) is a patented method of phosphating and can only properly be used when referring to guns finished by the Parkerize method. </pedantic mode OFF> --Dwight

12-10-2006, 09:13 PM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Gosh Dwight... I married one of them there English teachers... I thought the Lugerforum was the one place I could get by without that kind of on-the-spot correction of my typing syntax! It happens around the house ALL the time! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*