Navy

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Brendan,

Thank you for the additional images which allows me to notice more positive details:

1) The front appears to be fire blue with some fading/discoloration which is correct. When restorers refinish a (early) Luger pistol, they usually forget to remove the front sight and reblue it with the same finish as the barrel - this is usually a giveaway that the pistol has been refinished;

2) I notice some small speckles of patina on the left side of the barrel which is a good sign;

3) I notice some 'irregular patches' on the side left side of the frame (on the upside down image) which also indicates originality of the blue. These 'patches' are created when the micro thin polished coat on the surface of the blue begins to rub off and expose the first layer of the rust finish. This type of fading or 'patching' cannot be replicated - it occurs over many, many years, especially on pistols which have little use. One possible way that it could be created is by the very mild acidic moisture inside an holster which very slowly discolors the blue.

4) The safety lever shows tiny speckles of blackish patina in the staw - I like to see this characteristic in the straw which proves that the straw is original.

Vern, if you do not resist my comments, allow me to give you some education about sideplates which you have questioned on this Luger. In many cases, the sideplate will have a slightly different tone of blue than the rest of the pistol which is obviously noticeable on this pistol - no area of the sideplate has been touched up in my opinion. Furthermore, all the high edges are sharp and there are some dots of patina on the sideplate.

To be fair to this pistol, I give it the benefit of the doubt that it is totally genuine, which you are not willing give it. I suppose that you are going to extremes by being picky. I hope that I shall have the opportunity to one day examine this pistol in Europe during my travels. If I wrong regarding its originality, I shall bite my tongue.

Albert

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Vern,

I notice that you tend to be very suspicious about near mint Lugers, so I would like to show you an image of a M1900 Commercial which I had acquired from a collector in France. Sorry for the average quality image, but you can take my word that it is 'stone mint' - even the cherry color walnut grips have no dirt or stains from handling, but I did like the fact that the right grip screw had some fading of the fire blue - normal handling in the smallest degree. This Luger is nearly perfect, but it has a few tiny age marks which cried out "I'm all original"!

You will gain experience over time, and it is necessary that you examine many different pistols in your hands. You need to learn about the 'old-school' German engineering methods and workmanship as well as how time affects the different types of finishes with and without use.

Cheers,
Albert

[SIGP2101]

Huhâ?¦

I enjoyed reading every single word of this discussion. That was an exciting learning experience.

WE WANT MORE OF THIS!!


Thanks guys

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally posted by Imperial Arms
... In many cases, the sideplate will have a slightly different tone of blue than the rest of the pistol which is obviously noticeable on this pistol ...

Sideplates seem to be made of a different quality of steel from the rest of the gun. In response to a question several years ago, Thor mentioned that sideplates "take" blue differently--more quickly--than the rest of the gun. We have all seen examples where an otherwise correct and matching sideplate's surface has deteriorated much faster than the rest of the gun.

--Dwight

[Vlim]

It would be interesting to check if this discoloration is also present on Mauser made P08's, and certainly after they changed the blueing process.

The reason: According to original Mauser factory documentation dating from 1937, the side plate was made from the same steel as the frame.

[Ron Wood]

Gerben,
The difference in color of the side plate is something I have observed and wondered about. Given that it is the same alloy as the frame I suspect that the color may be due to different heat treating and the fact that the final sanding of the side plate is oriented vertically as opposed to the horizontal striations of the receiver...sort of a moir�© effect.

[Vlim]

Ron,

Good theory. The different (and quicker) wear of the blue is visible on my 1913 KNIL and 1917 DWM LP08, so I'm a 'believer' when it comes to side plate discoloration.

Here they are side by side (please ignore the VoPo grips, they're for handling purposes only):



It also helps to repeat the VoPo grip tip for owners of grip safety shooters:
The grips are hollow and are ideal for a grip safety conversion.

[John Sabato]

I concur with Ron's assessment of the heat treating being a likely suspect in the manner in which the sideplate takes it's blue differently than the majority of the gun's parts.

I also think that this part receives some very heavy machining operations for it size, weight, and construction and that the heavy machining to size may also alter the surface grain of the steel to where it finishes differently than the rest of the gun.

I was not sure if the sideplate is made from exactly the same alloy as the gun either...

Gerben, does the documentation that you have specify the steel type? and do you have anything on what processes were used to heat treat the various parts for hardening?

[Vlim]

John,

It's only given as 'Steel type St 50.11' and that is was a forged part ('schmiedeteil').

[John Sabato]

Gerben, does your documentation state the upper receiver and the grip frame forged originally? ... I know the Mauser reproductions were... or were they billet steel that was machined? Simply that difference would be enough for the blueing to be different in the same processes.

[Vlim]

John,

The 1937 receiver and complete toggle were made from similar steel and were machined from raw forgings. Steel type St C 25.61.

The toggle front-end was machined from a standard 5 meter long DIN-sized (DIN 1011)forged steel bar of 22x18mm in diameter, also of steel type St C 25.61. They were able to make 92 toggle fronts from this 5 meter bar.

The postwar Mauser Parabellum receiver was made from a forged part (I've inspected a raw forging in Oberndorf), as was the toggle front-end. The mid toggle and rear toggle pieces were castings.

[ChannelIsles]

The Navy sold for E6,611 / $9,430 / �£5,330.
A new high - recession? - what recession?

[Navy]

Well, I guess the value of my collection is going up again!

Tom A

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Brendan,

You made a mistake - it fetched Euros 10,049 ($14,250) which is a flaming high price!! I was estimating that this Navy Luger was going to fetch between Euros 7k-8k, but I guess that money is not an issue to some people such a as Tom who does not feel the recession!! He is loaded with money and Navy Lugers, and $4/gallon does not hurt him!

Cheers,
Albert

[Ron Wood]

Makes me feel pretty good about the $600 I invested in my Navy.

[LugerVern]

$14,250 high price for a refinished gun.

Look closely and you will see the shadows of the original "M's", they show in every picture of the proofs, and on the barrel proof, so its not a shaky hand.

This goes perfectly with the re blued usage marks that Dwight so kindly marked for everyone to see.

I wish the owner happiness in his new purchase!

Vern
( a non convert to the bitter end)

[Navy]

My Friend Albert,

Were it only so.

Tom A

[P. J. Heck]

I was in a discussion earlier this month where a 3 match mag Navy rig sold in Europe for $58,000....this source is above reproach....and I know another similar but not as good rig sold for $25,000 here.

For whatever reason, that doesnt seem out of line for me...maybe being in machine guns for so long (too long???) has had its effect.......

I was told a recent Julia auction, Oct 6., sold a MG for $920,000.???? I am waiting on the catalog/sale sheet to verify which gun.

What recession?????

[Imperial Arms]

Hello P.J.

The famous piece that fetched $920k is a Colt Walker revolver which was the center piece of the entire auction. A number of the high end items from the Doug Smith collection did not reach the reserve prices, and in my opinion, many of the pieces were priced overboard. I guess Doug and Julia's are searching for collectors with very deep pockets who have no value for money. Of course, these very wealthy collectors never experience the pain of a recession.

Albert

[P. J. Heck]

Aha.......another rumour put to rest.