1906 Portugese army crest removed

[pgalloway]

Hello out there in Luger world.

This is my first post and I'm amazed at the knowledge base on this forum. Wish I had discovered it sooner.

So I recently acquired a 1906 Portugese Army with the M2 crest removed. According to my research it is serialiized and marked correctly for this model and several of these are reported with the crest removed.

Mine is certainly a re-do, although very well done. There is no attempt to hide the fact that the crest was removed as the bluing in this area clearly is different from the rest of the receiver.

My question is: How typical is the removal of the crest? Even if it was in original condition, would this relegate it to a "shooter"?

Thanks for your input.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Peter,

In my opinion (and it is only that...), two things are working against your Luger...

1. Removal of the Portuguese chamber crest.

2. Loss of its original DWM factory-finish.

Either one would "kill" my interest in the M2...

Similarly if a Swiss Luger had its Swiss chamber marking removed but had the rest of its factory finish intact...I would still walk past the gun.

Yours has 2 strikes against it...in terms of being "collectible".

I would look upon such a gun as a "shooter"...for either condition but certain for both occuring on the same gun.

I have not heard of chamber crests being removed, routinely...can you share more info. on this..did the Portuguese do this after one King fell out of favor...???...

Here is the M2 on my gun :

[LugerVern]

An interesting question about collect ability: An unknown number of both the Portuguese Army and Navy lugers where defaced (Crest Removed) after the fall of King Manuel II in 1910.
If the gun was all original with correct circle triangle magazine, I suppose it could be looked at as a variation to some advanced collectors interested in history and wishing to have an example. We know for sure this defacing occurred, but to what extent is not known.
The biggest problem I see is the fact that it has been refinished, purest collectors have issues with reworks even though there seems to be an increasing demand for quality reworks, so not all is lost if it was done professionally.

We would enjoy seeing pictures of your gun, in particularly we would be interested in how much original finish is still remaining, close-ups of any markings that are left.

Thanks for posting

Vern

[pgalloway]

Hey, thanks to you both for a prompt reply.

"Lugers at Random" Page 134 states "Several have been noted with the royal crest removed, apparently done after the Republic of Portugal was formed."

I don't know what "several" means in this context, but since about 5,000 were reported to have been made, I'd guessing quite a few were defaced. Having said that, I've only learned of one other.

Anyway, if you go to http://gallery.mac.com/petergalloway#100013, you will be able to view quite a few photos taken of this piece.

As I said, I'm not disputing the originality of this as there seems an inapporpriate amount of wear for it's age, but I'd appreciate your comments anyway.

If I'm gong to relegate it to a "shooter", I'd sure like to know ahead of time I'm doing the right thing.

Best...

[lfid]

pictures show ok using

http://gallery.mac.com/petergalloway

I would be interested if you decide to sell as shooter

thanks
Bill

[Pete Ebbink]

Peter,

What is most puzzling about your gun is :

1. The refinisher (who did a nice job) seemed to have a chance to do a nice blue on the chamber and seemed to have work 'around' it altogether...I cannot, for the life of me, try to figure out why he/she would have skipped a reblue of the chamber...on your M2 pistol.

2. Wooden magazine has that tell-tale "ridge" of wood running through the bottom that is usually a Swiss '24 Bern magazine attribute...but someone seems to have tried to add "Navy" concentric rings (poorly though...).

BTW...here is a photo of a Luger that has been "freshened-up" along its bluing, but the area around the chamber engraving was left alone...as not to impart damage to the gold inlay...

On your gun, I am not sure what the refinisher was trying to retain...buy not doing the chamber...

Maybe a comment Vern made above makes sense...a die-hard Portuguese collector may want such a defaced gun...so maybe the restoration artist was "saving" the defacement area to prove it was one of the defaced guns...???...too bad he just did not leave the entire gun alone...



I woud also like to challenge the "defacement" topic a bit...

If the folks in power in Portugal felt so strongly about removing the traces of their loyality to their former King, why would not all of their service arms have been recalled and had all chamber crest removed. Maybe this was done "un-officially" in the field and by a few misanthropes, only...???...

[Mauser720]

Hi Pete -

I think you've posed an excellent question.

I have a "new guy" question: Except for the place where the crest of Portugal might have been at one time, exactly what else allows this pistol to be attributed to use by Portugal?

Also, in the case of Mauser military rifles, it was a very common practice to obliterate the coat of arms on any rifle that was being used in any clandestine operation or illegal "cross border" activity. Consequently, there are many Latin American Mausers which have had their crests removed from their reciever rings. This may have also been done when rifles were retired from service and sold on the international surplus market.

I mention this because I wonder if it is possible that Lugers might also have had their crests removed if it they were destined to be used in some clandestine armament program?

Mauser720 - Ron

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Ron,

Regarding the M2 Luger contract...it is well documented to have been a series of 5,000 guns (1-5000) made by DWM for Portugal in 1908-1910.

Besides being a M1906 with 7,65 mm 4-3/4" barrel, the serial number and the fact of Portuguese proofs (small triangle encircled) will appear on the left side of the receiver, the bottom of the barrel, and on the back of the frame above the lanyard loop...all SN stamping is in the "commercial" style. Thumb safety area is the "polished in the white" type. Extractor is marked "carregada" on the left side. Portuguese called it their M909. The bottom of the wooden magazine bottoms will have no SN stamping and only the Portuguese triangle/circle proof.

If you switch to the Members Gallery photo albums, you will see more photos of my M2 on page 6 of the albums...since these photos were taken, I have added two more Portuguese magazines (3 total) and an "AE" marked double magazine pouch as well...

[Ron Wood]

Seems like I am always the one that sees the apple and not the worm. Consensus so far is that the gun is an excellent job of refinishing but for some unexplained reason the chamber did not receive the same treatment.

I, on the other hand, think there is a reasonable likelihood that it is a moderately pristine original piece that has had the chamber crest removed and not touched up. The gun has been very well photographed, to the extent that it appears a bit better than it actually is. The markings are crisp and deep and some of the less flattering views (e.g. PB230184.JPG) reveal more of the true nature of the finish, which strikes me as probably original. I'm not quite as optimistic concerning the straw.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Ron,

Is the somewhat irregular shape of the polished area at the thumb safety worrisome to you...especially along the upper edge ?

[Ron Wood]

Yep...a little. But it doesn't look like a run-out made by a tool, too irregular. The polish is nice and uniform with evidence of a constant feed on the cutter. If it had been hand polished or the cutter wavered, you would expect a broader arc on the run-out. A bit worrisome but the rest of the polished area looks pretty good and has a nice patina. Have to give it at least a half thumbs up.

[Mauser720]

Hi Pete -

Very interesting. Thank you.

Okay, I can see from the photographs of your Portuguese Luger and your description of the markings and proofs, that even without the crest, this is still a Portuguese Luger.

So I am still wondering why would it be necessary or even desirable to remove the crest? Since Portugal is Spain's neighbor, and since Spain went through a bloody civil war, I was wondering if there might be some connection between this defaced Luger and the Spanish Civil War. Now take a look at what I found on the internet:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SPportugal.htm

"On the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War the Portuguese government of Antonio Salazar immediately supported the Nationalists in the struggle against the Popular Front government in Spain. Salazar feared that if the Republicans won the war his own authoritarian government would be under threat.

"Salazar, concerned about the effect the events in Spain would have on his country, established a new militia that could serve as an auxiliary police. This new police force arrested dissidents and removed politically unreliable people from educational and governmental institutions.

"Leaders of the Nationalist Army were allowed to negotiate with representatives from Nazi Germany in Portugal. After the signing of the Non-Intervention Agreement in September 1936, Salazar agreed that Germany could disguise the aid that it was giving by sending men, planes, tanks, and munitions via Lisbon.

"Salazar's police also arrested supporters of the Popular Front government living in Portugal. He also sealed off the Portuguese frontier to Republicans.

"Although he came under considerable pressure from Britain and France, Salazar refused to allow international observers being stationed on the Portugal-Spain border. Officially he claimed that it would be a violation of Portugal sovereignty while in reality he did not want the world to know about the large amounts of military aid that was crossing into Spain."

I think the possibility that this Luger may be a remnant of Portugal's clandestine aid to the Nationalist forces may be just as plausible as the notion that some people wanted to show their disdain for a previous monarch.

Just a thought.

Mauser720 - Ron

[LugerVern]

The crest removal theory has bothered me for some time, this is especially true when you consider that M912â??s (RP Anchor) (Republic of Portugal) lugers have been seen with the crest removed, this just doesnâ??t make since. Why would the crest be removed from the republics guns?
There could be some other explanation other than individuals defacing military owned weapons. These could range from sales of arms from surplus to hidden clandestine operations. The other thing I noticed is the method of removal on most seems very well done, so I suspect an armory or a well equipped field office not individuals haphazardly removing metal from their guns using various methods

Ron may be right about the finish in that it is pristineâ??if so that gun saw very little service, and that worries me as does the near perfect grips?

It may be worth your time to have one of the forum members look at your gun before putting too many rounds through it.

Vern

[pgalloway]

Hey, you guys are good! Let me tell you more about this gun. Maybe it will help.

Most of the pictures posted on the web are taken two days ago, after Vern asked to see some pictures. The flash makes the defaced are look a lot worse than in natural light.

This gun has been fired as evidenced by some minor flaking in the bore at the muzzle. Other than that, the bore is clean, shiny and free from pits. How worn is it? I'd leave that to an expert. Looks pretty good to me.

As for imperfections, there are three very small pits on the left side of the barrel about 1/2 inch forward of the receiver, two at the muzzle, also on the left side. Other than that the barrel is pristine. The barrel alignment mark is perfectly matched to the receiver and looks like a single strike, so the barrel probably has not been removed.

There are pits in the lanyard loop and the bottom of the backstrap is somewhat pitted. That is pretty much the extent of the imperfections except for the magazine which, I agree, is not original to the gun.

As for the crest removal, a strong loop reveals that is was probably removed with an emery cloth as scratch marks are all parallel and perpendicular to the receiver. The remover then did a half baked blueing job.

Ron, you raise an interesting question about the possible originality of the finish. This would seem to couple with Vern's question as to why a professional restorer would not try to mask the crest removal. If so, one woud assume the rest of of the imperfections would have been dealt with also. Of course said restorer could be very clever and try not to make it look too good so as to cast some doubt as to it's originality.

Presumably there are collectors out there with original Portugese Army with the crest removed. It would be useful to see what the removed areas look like as well as learn more abouthte history of crest removal on these pistols.

What do you think?

Pete, I looked at your M2 in the gallery. It's a honey. Hey and isn't that photo of the 1900 the one posted on the Phoenix Investment site? I noticed that a recent bid of $150,000 did not make the reserve. Seems curious for a "freshened up" piece.

Peter

[Pete Ebbink]

Peter,

The recent $ 150,000 bid was somewhat of a joke by one of the Members...

Regarding the PS/SP carbine that Ralph Shattuck out of AZ State has owned for years, this discussion occured over on Jan Still's gun-boards in the recent past :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12759

[Pete Ebbink]

Peter,

Could I impose on you to provide more close-up photos of the triangle/circle proof marks on your luger in the following areas :

1. Underside of barrel.

2. Back of frame.

3. Left side of the receiver.

From your previous photos, it appears your proof marks have a "halo" around the stampings.

[Dwight Gruber]

Is there bluing in the recesses of the barrel pitting?

--Dwight

[pgalloway]

Pete,

Okay, if you go back to my gallery, I posted these pictures.

http://gallery.mac.com/petergalloway#100013

There is definitely a halo on the barrel and the back of the frame. I don't see one on the receiver though.

So, is a "halo" a good or dad thing? It suggests the proof stamp was done after the rust blueing.

Best...

[Ron Wood]

It is a good thing, as far as I am concerned. I have an M2 that still has the crest and it is very close in condition to yours. My M2 has the back frame halo, but the barrel has a DWM barrel inspector's mark indicating replacement or rework of the barrel, so my barrel "proof" does not have a halo. It is unfortunate that your Luger is one that has had the crest ground off because if it hadn't been ground, my opinion is that it would probably be one the best preserved M2s around.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Peter,

I have seen 6 other M2's in person in my travels in the past few years, all of them being above the 1000 SN range and all of those showed no halos on the barrel, the receiver, or the back of frame. Those guns looked original finish and with the wear you normally see on the Portuguese guns.

That is not to say all 5000 guns of the M2 contract were finished in the same way...i.e. proofing before bluing or proofing after bluing.

There was also a similar Brazilian contract of 5000 guns around the 1907-08 timeframe. Those I have seen in person also did not display halo and I thought their finish was original as well. Brazilians are blank chambered and have a B/circle proof.

The reason I requested better, close-up photos was to be able to see more detail of your halos.

As you may or may not know, some of the more recent restoration artists are refining techiques to "re-create" a halo effect...some we have seen in the past here on the forums still display an "artificiality" to the halo effect they have attempted to create.

Good close up photos of the proof halos would allow us all to see those on your gun in better lighting and detail.

I have played around with a couple of your photos and cannot see the halo in enough detail...

Here is one of your photos, zoomed in...I keep thinking I see a Swiss cross proof on the back of your Luger...which is certainly not the case...just the limit of zooming in on the photos you have posted so far...