Interesting story in 1945

[Klaus]

Hi Mike,

we all would like to hear the "interesting story in 1945" between Harry Jones and Sid Aberman.

I'm sure that Ralph Shattuck will shed some light into the mystery of the .45 million dollar luger and will explain all the details of this story to the luger fraternity.

Incidentally, Reinhard Kornmayer just put an article in DWJ.

Heading : "Pistolen-Karabiner in .45 Kaliber mit zweifelhafter Herkunft".

Translation : ".45 pistol carbine of dubious origin".

Klaus

[Brandon]

Hello Klaus! <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Welcome to the Luger Forum!
I have sent you a private message, when you get the spare time check it out. Thanks alot!

Very Best Regards
Brandon Metcalf

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Klaus,

Such message threads regarding taking "pot shots" about the .45 luger carbine is just what shut down our old Luger Forum...

All of us are waiting to hear the outcome of this controversial gun.

But on the new Luger Forum, we all promised to stay away from hear-say info, inuendo, and such pot shots...

Just my 2 cents...

[Jan C Still]

Pete
Reinhard Kornmayer is the most credible and respected Luger historian in Germany. DWJ is the most prestigious firearms/history magazine published in Germany. With Ralph Shattuck's help Reinhard Kornmayer researched the .45 Luger Carbine. He put an article concerning his research in DWJ.

Klaus informed fellow collecors that the title of
that article translated to ".45 caliber carbine of dubious origin". I dont think that members of the Forum want to be kept in the dark concerning important non-seller research concerning this Luger. Let's not let the forum become known as the head-in-the-sand bunch.
Jan

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Jan,

I understand your point completely and agree that an informed debate is healthy and no way suggested we avoid controversial topics or dicussions about certain lugers.

I was just reacting to a "new" Forum poster that, on their first posting, seemed to jump into the controversial "bon fire" that lead to the old Forum shutting down. The start of this message thread addressed to "Mike" seemed to be a little out-of-sequence, a bit as well...

Maybe you or John D. could forward a copy of this German magazine article to Ralph, talk to Ralph on the phone and give Ralph a chance to respond, and then both opinions could get posted on the new Forum for all to read and digest for ourselves...afterall, a fair debate should never be a monologue and should give both parties "fair and equal" air time. If the "shoe were on the other foot" as the saying goes, I would imagine you would appreciate the same fairness and open debate opportunity.

We all are also waiting for a major American gun magazine article and cover story to come out that may support the gun-in-question's authencity.

Respectfully Yours,

Pete

[wterrell]

Klaus,

Would you be able to supply us with the translated text of the article in DWJ? This would shed a little more light on what is going on.
Looking forward to seeing this article.

[Mike Jones]

Pete,

I think maybe Klaus saw my post under "interesting post/thread from Ralph" concerning a Ralph story from 1945 and instead of adding reply he started new topic and thats why it starts Mike,.

By Klaus informing collectors about an upcoming article by Reinhard Kornmayer in DWJ he is taking a "pot shot" at the .45 carbine?

Who are we waiting to hear from on the outcome of this gun before it can be dicussed on the luger forum? everything else seems to be fair game.

Maybe someone can help me here,because I sure dont understand this.

Mike

[wterrell]

Please explain to me "What" shoe is on "Which" foot? Maybe this will explain to me what in the Sam Hill is going on here!

[Edward Tinker]

Mike, Pete was just trying to be ultra careful, this forum means a lot to many people and hearsay talk about people without facts, can get John into trouble. From the title, it sounded like a negative, but of course magazine as well as newspaper people want a title to grab attention.

Quoting an article and its title is fair game and the quoting and discussion of the article should be encouraged and I don't imagine there would be a problem with it.

Discussion from all involved is what this is about and I would love to see a translation of the article.

Any idea when it will be out or is out Klaus?

[Ron Wood]

This topic is getting a little tense and defensive. I encourage open discussion as long as it is constructive, friendly and not personal. Keep it objective. It is not necessary to defend any arguement or individual. Just stick to observable facts, not conjecture or undocumentable opinions. Thank you all for considering this message and keeping this forum wholesome and informative.

[Klaus]

Translation of Reinhard Kornmayers article in DWJ (July issue) was written very objectively and by no means in a negative sense.

I consulted my English/German dictionary and checked "zweifelhaft" which translates into English : Doubtful, dubious, suspicious and uncertain. You guys go ahead and take your pick.

Here is my attempt to translate said article and please remember, I'm not a professional translater.

Attention Parabellum-Collectors. Check out this offer from the internet.

"Parabellum-Carbine .45 Cal. of dubious origin"

This information from the USA caused worldwide attention. Ralph Shattuck, a dealer from Peoria/Arizona, specializing in Parabellum-Pistols for decades, is offering under consignment a .45 ACP Parabellum-Pistol-Carbine for sale. The purchase price is $ 1,000,000 belief it or not.

There might be only a handful .45 ACP lugers out there, maybe 20 at the most. Serial # 2,4,14 and 17 are reported. These particular pistols were larger in size than the more common 7.65mm or 9mm cal. because of their .45 ACP.

The production was ensued at DWM approx. 1906 with trail tests run at foreign armies, particularely at the US Army where the 1911 Colt 45 succeeded.

A .45 ACP Parabellum-Pistol-Carbine was unknown until now. The authenticity caused passionate discussion among Collectors and historians alike, especially in the internet.

Information are available at www.worldoflugers. com and www.lugerforum.com. The discussion at the Luger Forum was cancelled due to the immense intensity.

We'll keep you posted as further information develop.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Klaus,

Thanks so much for taking the time to do the translation and to post. And a belated, Welcome, to the Forum !

I apologize if any took offense to my posting...I was just attempting (maybe a bit lamely) to keep the topic "fair & balanced" as FOX News says...

<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

[Jan C Still]

Klaus, Kornmayer, Jones, Shattuck,
Kornmayer reports .45 caliber Luger serial numbers 2, 4, 14, and 17. Jones pointed out how the same Luger can be mistakenly reported twice. How many of these .45 caliber Lugers have been verified by a second reliable source? Perhaps new production .45 Lugers are being confused with the originals. Which ones were reported well prior to the time of new production in the United states.

What are the details of Shattuck report in this fourm that Jones and Alberman had an altercation in 1945 over a "fake"(?) 45 luger?
Jan C. Still

[Ron Wood]

Excellent translation Klaus. Thank you for providing the information to those of us who do not subscribe to the very fine DWJ.

[wterrell]

Well.......

That article was a lot of nothing. If nothing else, the title was a little irresponsible and sensational while the story discussed how upset we were.

Thanks for the translation Klaus. Wish I could read and speak German. You are fortunate.

[Doubs]

Klaus,

Thanks for the translation of the DWJ article. I think Reinhardt Kornmayer was factual without taking sides or drawing a conclusion as to the authenticity of the piece in question. The German readers are now aware of an existing .45 Caliber Parabellum carbine that is causing battle lines to be drawn among collectors. Clearly, in the absence of unquestionable proof one way or the other, the debate is likely to endure for some time to come. It should be interesting.

[Kyrie]

Hi Wes,

I have to respectfully disagree that the title of the article was irresponsible. To date there has been no (to my knowledge) account of the provenance of the Luger in question. Rare firearms (which this carbine certainly is, if authentic) without provenance are dubious. â??Dubiousâ?? simply means that doubt exists concerning the firearmâ??s authenticity, because there has been nothing to establish its authenticity.

Warm regards,

Kyrie

[wterrell]

[quote]"Parabellum-Carbine .45 Cal. of dubious origin"<hr></blockquote>
The title made a statement that the origin of the .45 carbine was dubious, and then offered no argument or proof that the statement was correct. It made a statement that the dubious origin was fact.

The title did not state that many or some thought that the origin was dubious. The story did not follow the title.

I thought I was going to learn something from this article which would confirm or refute my suspicions concerning this gun. I need better fodder than this to confirm my opinion.

That is tabloid technique to give a title that says one thing and the body of the article says something different. A better title would have been "Parabellum-Carbine .45 Cal....Origin disputed"

[Jan C Still]

Wes
in defense of Reinhard's article in DWJ.

You state that Reinhards article is a "lot of nothing", "irresponsable" and"sensational" I would suggest that it is a reflection of the information supplied by the seller. Thus far the seller has supplied such statements as "the finest historic firearm ever discovered", "original" and "not a Krausewerke". These are unverified/undocumented seller statemants.

Of coarse Reinhard's article does not include the undocumentated seller hype. This leaves little to report("a lot of nothing") This objective and accurate article is just what Reinhard and DWJ intended.
Jan C. Still

[wterrell]

I shall stand down, in deference. I agree with what you have said, totally. The article was a disappointment to me because there was nothing in the article to substantiate or deny the gun's authenticity.
(now I am in hot water!)
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />