Pix from Forensics Exam

Navy · 09-04-2002, 09:56 PM

All,

I sent a series of my ill-executed pictures to John S, AKA our Site Moderator. He assures me they will be posted soon. I feel very confident that he may have an edge on me in getting them on line because I had zero success. In any event, pls enjoy. I welcome questions about my interpretation and opinions.

Tom A

Edward Tinker · 09-04-2002, 10:07 PM

Tom, I hope you don't mind, but I'm on-line and will post your pictures right here:

Hugh · 09-04-2002, 11:23 PM

Tom,

In the second pic, showing the bottom of the bbl and cannon, I know the two digits on the lug are the last two #'s of the SN. Do you know the significance of the "20" just ahead of the lug? Is that the first two digits of the SN? I can't read the first two #'s on the bbl, but it looks like they may be "20". [img]confused.gif[/img]

Navy · 09-05-2002, 08:52 AM

Hugh,

You get the cigar. The first two digits are 20.

Tom A.

John Sabato · 09-05-2002, 10:22 AM

Thanks for the photo-posting assist Ed! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Dan Clemons · 10-06-2002, 03:47 PM

Hi Tom:

That is a model 1914. Is it a 1916 or 1917? It does not appear to have been buffed or blued. You have an authentic genuine model 1914 Navy Luger. That is a REAL beauty!

Dan

Jan C Still · 10-06-2002, 05:38 PM

Big Norm · 10-11-2002, 10:49 PM

Tom,
On picture number two, there are some markings on the underside of the barrel. A bit out of focus, but it looks like the tail end of "GERMANY". What is that? The barrel alignment marks seem to be off a tad bit.
Big Norm

larry · 10-12-2002, 09:52 PM

Tom
My Navy was manufactured within 40 numbers earlier than yours. Would love to get together and compare Lugers sometime.
larry

Navy · 10-13-2002, 12:02 PM

Hi Larry,

I am on the at present; will be back in mid week but only to down load dirty laundry and relaod clean; then off again until SUN PM.

Would love to do a side by side disassembly and comparison. What part of the Old Dominion "yat" as they say in Nawlens.

Tom

larry · 10-13-2002, 10:16 PM

Tom
I live in the Roanoke area. Could meet you at White's Truck Stop which is about half way for each of us. Shoot me an email and I will send you my Telephone number. Tried to e-mail you but said your mail was full and would not accept mine.
larry

Big Norm · 10-20-2002, 04:42 AM

Yo Tac! You forgot that the USA also gave the world the Hulla Hoop and Pet Rocks. History will never be the same. The above pictures of what could be the tail end of "Germany" are out of focus. It could be something else. Yes, British proof marks and other import marks (with the exception of the word "GERMANY" which was rarely put on the underside of the barrel) do reduce the collectibility value of a Luger as does restoration work. Collectors are the people who pay the big dollars for originality. Just any slapped together or altered Luger has never demanded the big money. Although, I must admit that there are a number of small time and unscrupulous dealers who think otherwise.
Big Norm

AGE · 10-20-2002, 05:54 PM

Tacfoley,

Did you ever drive an Edsel? I worked for Ford at the time they came out. I was a new engineer, couldn't afford a new car (or a Luger--I had a P-38 as my only handgun at the time--much cheaper than a 1911). Anyway, the Edsel really drove very well--I liked it. Our engineering group had one for employee use on the job. Sadly, the market was wrong for a new car and the toilet seat grille hurt it badly.

Big Norm · 10-22-2002, 11:49 AM

Dear Tacfoley,
This is a bit off topic, but I'll shoot for it anyway. The Edsel was never considered a bad car. In MBA marketing school classes, it is considered as an example of bad market timing of a big car at a time that America was down sizing autos. As a collectors car, it is a prize. Not as big a prize as the original Mustag or the 1954-56 Chevy, but right up there.
But now to get back on topic. I am surprised that you would focus in the out-of-focus markings on the underside of the barrel. In my original comments, I mentioned two things to look at and the markings under the barrel were the least important of the two. The markings just would affect the price which would only matter to Tom A. The barrel alignment markings being a tad off was the more important of the two. These markings are not supposed to be even a tad off. For some unknown reason, this barrel could have been replaced/removed. I could be wrong, but Tom A should take a look at that for his own benefit and curiousity.
Big Norm

Doubs · 10-22-2002, 01:05 PM

Tacfoley & Big Norm, I'd be interested in seeing a picture taken perfectly perpendicular to the barrel/receiver witness marks. The angle from which the picture we're seeing was taken may make the witness mark appear to be ever so slightly off. Only a picture from directly above will truly show if it's off or not.

Navy · 10-22-2002, 04:32 PM

Guys,

It was the camera angle; the marks are not perfectly even in diameter along their length; rather, under the loupe, the distant ends and the near ends are slightly more narrow. I surmise this was to ensure a more precise "witness". In any event, at an angle, they appear misaligned when they are in fact dead on. Regrettably I do not have time to do a pic tonight.

Tom A.

09-04-2002, 09:56 PM	#1
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Pix from Forensics Exam All, I sent a series of my ill-executed pictures to John S, AKA our Site Moderator. He assures me they will be posted soon. I feel very confident that he may have an edge on me in getting them on line because I had zero success. In any event, pls enjoy. I welcome questions about my interpretation and opinions. Tom A

09-04-2002, 10:07 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Tom, I hope you don't mind, but I'm on-line and will post your pictures right here: __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-04-2002, 11:23 PM	#3
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Tom, In the second pic, showing the bottom of the bbl and cannon, I know the two digits on the lug are the last two #'s of the SN. Do you know the significance of the "20" just ahead of the lug? Is that the first two digits of the SN? I can't read the first two #'s on the bbl, but it looks like they may be "20". [img]confused.gif[/img] __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-05-2002, 10:22 AM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Thanks for the photo-posting assist Ed! [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-06-2002, 03:47 PM	#6
Dan Clemons User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Grants Pass, OR Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Tom: That is a model 1914. Is it a 1916 or 1917? It does not appear to have been buffed or blued. You have an authentic genuine model 1914 Navy Luger. That is a REAL beauty! Dan __________________ Loving Lugers

09-05-2002, 08:52 AM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hugh, You get the cigar. The first two digits are 20. Tom A.

10-06-2002, 05:38 PM	#7
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts

10-11-2002, 10:49 PM	#8
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom, On picture number two, there are some markings on the underside of the barrel. A bit out of focus, but it looks like the tail end of "GERMANY". What is that? The barrel alignment marks seem to be off a tad bit. Big Norm

10-12-2002, 09:52 PM	#9
larry User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 106 Thanks: 26 Thanked 15 Times in 8 Posts	Tom My Navy was manufactured within 40 numbers earlier than yours. Would love to get together and compare Lugers sometime. larry

10-13-2002, 12:02 PM	#10
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Larry, I am on the at present; will be back in mid week but only to down load dirty laundry and relaod clean; then off again until SUN PM. Would love to do a side by side disassembly and comparison. What part of the Old Dominion "yat" as they say in Nawlens. Tom

10-13-2002, 10:16 PM	#11
larry User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 106 Thanks: 26 Thanked 15 Times in 8 Posts	Tom I live in the Roanoke area. Could meet you at White's Truck Stop which is about half way for each of us. Shoot me an email and I will send you my Telephone number. Tried to e-mail you but said your mail was full and would not accept mine. larry

10-20-2002, 04:42 AM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Yo Tac! You forgot that the USA also gave the world the Hulla Hoop and Pet Rocks. History will never be the same. The above pictures of what could be the tail end of "Germany" are out of focus. It could be something else. Yes, British proof marks and other import marks (with the exception of the word "GERMANY" which was rarely put on the underside of the barrel) do reduce the collectibility value of a Luger as does restoration work. Collectors are the people who pay the big dollars for originality. Just any slapped together or altered Luger has never demanded the big money. Although, I must admit that there are a number of small time and unscrupulous dealers who think otherwise. Big Norm

10-20-2002, 05:54 PM	#13
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tacfoley, Did you ever drive an Edsel? I worked for Ford at the time they came out. I was a new engineer, couldn't afford a new car (or a Luger--I had a P-38 as my only handgun at the time--much cheaper than a 1911). Anyway, the Edsel really drove very well--I liked it. Our engineering group had one for employee use on the job. Sadly, the market was wrong for a new car and the toilet seat grille hurt it badly. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

10-22-2002, 11:49 AM	#14
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Dear Tacfoley, This is a bit off topic, but I'll shoot for it anyway. The Edsel was never considered a bad car. In MBA marketing school classes, it is considered as an example of bad market timing of a big car at a time that America was down sizing autos. As a collectors car, it is a prize. Not as big a prize as the original Mustag or the 1954-56 Chevy, but right up there. But now to get back on topic. I am surprised that you would focus in the out-of-focus markings on the underside of the barrel. In my original comments, I mentioned two things to look at and the markings under the barrel were the least important of the two. The markings just would affect the price which would only matter to Tom A. The barrel alignment markings being a tad off was the more important of the two. These markings are not supposed to be even a tad off. For some unknown reason, this barrel could have been replaced/removed. I could be wrong, but Tom A should take a look at that for his own benefit and curiousity. Big Norm

10-22-2002, 01:05 PM	#15
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	Tacfoley & Big Norm, I'd be interested in seeing a picture taken perfectly perpendicular to the barrel/receiver witness marks. The angle from which the picture we're seeing was taken may make the witness mark appear to be ever so slightly off. Only a picture from directly above will truly show if it's off or not.

10-22-2002, 04:32 PM	#16
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Guys, It was the camera angle; the marks are not perfectly even in diameter along their length; rather, under the loupe, the distant ends and the near ends are slightly more narrow. I surmise this was to ensure a more precise "witness". In any event, at an angle, they appear misaligned when they are in fact dead on. Regrettably I do not have time to do a pic tonight. Tom A.