Help me identify this Luger - - Page 2

45Wheelgun · 01-24-2013, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Please understand that even if you find the correct number parts, the gun will be regarded as "forcematched" by those in the know. You can do a lot to improve the gun but you can not make it original.
I'm just sayin'.
dju

Of this there is no doubt. I'm not real concerned as the chances of this coming together and happening are slim to none, but I do travel to many a gun show and one never knows what I may find. Gives me something to look for.

I might even be happy with a non number matching train that comes from a commercial with a correct DWM Crest. This gun looks so nice, it is a shame it has such an obvious mismatch.

45Wheelgun · 01-24-2013, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugersrkewl

1.yes it will have the dwm crest on it.

2.no. commercials are only serialized with last two #'s on the rear toggle link, side plate, barrel, take down lever. Im not positive but the safety lever, safety bar, trigger , hold open, safety lever, , extractor and breachblock my be serialized with last two digits of serial #.

3.yes ,commercial mags arent serialized, although some have the caliber. but if your trying to make an original piece I think you would need a take down lever thats commercial dwm with matching serial and thats needle in a haystack stuff ( maybe one mismatched part is feasible but several...) good luck

Thank you so much for your help. I had deduced much of that by viewing photo examples on the web, but it is good to have it confirmed.

Does a dwm take down lever have any unique identifying marks I should be looking for? I guess in other words, how would I know when I found one regardless of serial number?

Regards,
Dave

Ron Wood · 01-24-2013, 11:56 PM

A proper takedown lever for your DWM will have the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the bottom, as opposed to on the left flat like a military piece or on the right round like a very early Luger.

DavidJayUden · 01-25-2013, 07:23 AM

If I'm not mistaken, any DWM toggle (except artillery) will work for you. So start shopping for any mismatched shooter gun with original finish and that number on the toggle, swap toggles, sell the leftover gun, and "presto, chango", you have arrived. Even a bargain priced matching commercial Luger may be eyed as a donor gun. And remember that one out of every 100 DWM Lugers out there is a potential donor.
And the internet will get you there a lot faster than hitting gun shows.
dju

el_loco · 01-25-2013, 09:23 AM

when you look for a matching toggle, please pay attention, that the number "3" looks similar to the "3" of the serial-number.
if you compare the number "3" of the serial-number with the "3" in the calibre indication (third pic) you see, what i mean: they have different styles and both styles were used.

regards
klaus

CAP Black · 01-25-2013, 09:48 AM

I am probably going to learn something here, but I did not think that finding the right numbered, replacement part; of the exact vintage was considered as being: "a forced match." That's a little more strict than was my understanding. That would mean that if I found the exact magazine for my 1906 Navy, of the correct vintage and the right number (fat chance of doing it) it would be considered a forced match?? Wow, that is tough.
thanks
Jack

alanint · 01-25-2013, 11:36 AM

Most collectors consider "Force Matched" to mean a renumbered part or a part that did not have a number having one applied to match.
There would be virtually no way to tell that a correct, numbered part had been substituted on the pistol.

Thsi also opens up ethical questions as to how the pistol is to be represented at time of sale.

el_loco · 01-25-2013, 12:14 PM

hmm, difficult.
when in 1913 an ejector was broken, and the armorer of the regiment took an unnumbered replacement out of his stock, fit it in the pistol and gave it the number, was that a force matched too?

DavidJayUden · 01-25-2013, 12:17 PM

CAP:
If you were to find the correct magazine with the correct suffix, that would be fine because you now have the correct original magazine. The exact one. Not a similar part.
Now regarding calling replacing parts with correctly numbered parts, that is a bit different, at least IMHO. I guess if everything is correct then it is sort of OK, but rarely will the finish match up perfectly, or like Klaus mentioned the font may differ a bit, etc.
I guess from a buyer's perspective, I'd want to know before I laid my money down. Imagine that instead of looking at a $1500 Luger we were talking about a $500,000 vintage sports car. It darned well does make a difference if non-original OEM parts were gathered up and placed on a damaged auto that was then sold at top dollar.
Just my $.02.
dju

DavidJayUden · 01-25-2013, 12:20 PM

El Loco:
And how does the buyer know that it was an armorer's work during the Great war, or a fraud's work in the Great recession?
My opinion is that it does make a difference. It is not a deal killer, it does not make that gun a "shooter", but a point to be discussed.
Do you agree?
dju

el_loco · 01-25-2013, 12:50 PM

david,
i see your point.
if its done well, you cant see as buyer, when it was changed, nobody can see it.
if we talk now about a standard-weapon, i would not have a problem with that.
its an original part, which was replaced.

if its your opinion, that this replacement is already fraud, what is with the topic "refreshing" then? you pimp a gun to a condition, what it never had. is this fraud too?

i think, fraud starts at that point, when we make a ss-sharpshooter-carbine out of a normal carbine 98k, with the necessary stamps on it.
or we pimp a normal luger to get the personal backup-gun of the gröfaz himself.

interesting thread :-)

regards
klaus

45Wheelgun · 01-25-2013, 05:43 PM

I help a friend out who runs estate sales. I worked for him today. Guess what. He has a commercial parts gun with a dwm toggletrain. The train is in good enough condition and is not serial numbered on the outside. One part is serial numbered where you can only see it when the train is removed. The gun is a complete parts nightmare. The barrel is sterile, no markings at all. The frame and receiver are serial number 20. No proof marks anywhere on the frame, receiver or barrel. The other parts have a variety of serial numbers. A very strange gun. Sadly he wants $1500 for the gun and will not sell/trade me the part I need as it belongs to the estate. $1500 seems way high to me.

Seemed to good to be true and I guess it was.

Thank you again for all your help guys I really appreciate it.

01-24-2013, 11:56 PM	#23
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	A proper takedown lever for your DWM will have the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the bottom, as opposed to on the left flat like a military piece or on the right round like a very early Luger. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-25-2013, 09:23 AM	#25
el_loco Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: bavaria - germany Posts: 49 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	when you look for a matching toggle, please pay attention, that the number "3" looks similar to the "3" of the serial-number. if you compare the number "3" of the serial-number with the "3" in the calibre indication (third pic) you see, what i mean: they have different styles and both styles were used. regards klaus __________________ Extra Bavariam nulla vita, et si est vita, non est ita

01-25-2013, 09:48 AM	#26
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	further understanding I am probably going to learn something here, but I did not think that finding the right numbered, replacement part; of the exact vintage was considered as being: "a forced match." That's a little more strict than was my understanding. That would mean that if I found the exact magazine for my 1906 Navy, of the correct vintage and the right number (fat chance of doing it) it would be considered a forced match?? Wow, that is tough. thanks Jack

01-25-2013, 12:14 PM	#28
el_loco Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: bavaria - germany Posts: 49 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	hmm, difficult. when in 1913 an ejector was broken, and the armorer of the regiment took an unnumbered replacement out of his stock, fit it in the pistol and gave it the number, was that a force matched too? __________________ Extra Bavariam nulla vita, et si est vita, non est ita

01-25-2013, 12:50 PM	#31
el_loco Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: bavaria - germany Posts: 49 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	david, i see your point. if its done well, you cant see as buyer, when it was changed, nobody can see it. if we talk now about a standard-weapon, i would not have a problem with that. its an original part, which was replaced. if its your opinion, that this replacement is already fraud, what is with the topic "refreshing" then? you pimp a gun to a condition, what it never had. is this fraud too? i think, fraud starts at that point, when we make a ss-sharpshooter-carbine out of a normal carbine 98k, with the necessary stamps on it. or we pimp a normal luger to get the personal backup-gun of the gröfaz himself. interesting thread :-) regards klaus __________________ Extra Bavariam nulla vita, et si est vita, non est ita

01-25-2013, 07:23 AM	#24
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	If I'm not mistaken, any DWM toggle (except artillery) will work for you. So start shopping for any mismatched shooter gun with original finish and that number on the toggle, swap toggles, sell the leftover gun, and "presto, chango", you have arrived. Even a bargain priced matching commercial Luger may be eyed as a donor gun. And remember that one out of every 100 DWM Lugers out there is a potential donor. And the internet will get you there a lot faster than hitting gun shows. dju

01-25-2013, 11:36 AM	#27
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Most collectors consider "Force Matched" to mean a renumbered part or a part that did not have a number having one applied to match. There would be virtually no way to tell that a correct, numbered part had been substituted on the pistol. Thsi also opens up ethical questions as to how the pistol is to be represented at time of sale.

01-25-2013, 12:17 PM	#29
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	CAP: If you were to find the correct magazine with the correct suffix, that would be fine because you now have the correct original magazine. The exact one. Not a similar part. Now regarding calling replacing parts with correctly numbered parts, that is a bit different, at least IMHO. I guess if everything is correct then it is sort of OK, but rarely will the finish match up perfectly, or like Klaus mentioned the font may differ a bit, etc. I guess from a buyer's perspective, I'd want to know before I laid my money down. Imagine that instead of looking at a $1500 Luger we were talking about a $500,000 vintage sports car. It darned well does make a difference if non-original OEM parts were gathered up and placed on a damaged auto that was then sold at top dollar. Just my $.02. dju

01-25-2013, 12:20 PM	#30
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	El Loco: And how does the buyer know that it was an armorer's work during the Great war, or a fraud's work in the Great recession? My opinion is that it does make a difference. It is not a deal killer, it does not make that gun a "shooter", but a point to be discussed. Do you agree? dju

01-25-2013, 05:43 PM	#32
45Wheelgun User Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 12 Thanks: 9 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I help a friend out who runs estate sales. I worked for him today. Guess what. He has a commercial parts gun with a dwm toggletrain. The train is in good enough condition and is not serial numbered on the outside. One part is serial numbered where you can only see it when the train is removed. The gun is a complete parts nightmare. The barrel is sterile, no markings at all. The frame and receiver are serial number 20. No proof marks anywhere on the frame, receiver or barrel. The other parts have a variety of serial numbers. A very strange gun. Sadly he wants $1500 for the gun and will not sell/trade me the part I need as it belongs to the estate. $1500 seems way high to me. Seemed to good to be true and I guess it was. Thank you again for all your help guys I really appreciate it.