OT: Taurus PT-145 Slides

[Mark M.]

This is directed to the metalergistists on this site from denfoote. I have recently purchased a Taurus PT-145. I have been in a discussion with Mark M regarding the slide composition. The pistol in question is available in both blued steel and stainless. My specimen is in blued and Mark M has the choice of the two steels. I say that the blued is stronger. That the stainless steel in a short barreled, short recoil simi-auto pistol will result in galling of the slide, and frame. Which should he buy???? Even though I am only an electronic engineering technician, I have had mechanics of materials cources in my academic background. I am a poster on the sister site. I do not as yet own a Luger, but I would like to tap into your vast knowledge of metals science. This pistol was designed as a close quarters personal defense weapon and the integrity of the components are crucial. (notwendig!!!!!) In this time of national crisis the choice of a personal defense weapon becomes important!!!

[Marvin]

Mark,


I am a mechanical engineer and I have thought plenty about the difference in the stainless and the steel components in pistols. First, carbon steel is stronger than stainless steel and is my prefered choice! Carbon steel does not have the galling characteristics of stainless. But, if stainless steel is properly lubricated on the sliding surfaces, there is no problem with galling. Both are very acceptable for any weapon. To me, the only great thing about a stainless pistol is that it does not rust as easy as carbon steel. Yes, stainless steel can rust, but at a MUCH reduced rate from carbon steel. Normally, the lower grades of stainless as "440" type is used for handguns. If the surgical grades were used, the cost would be much higher for the material.


Either one can be trusted to perform as needed once you have used the pistol and there are no mechanical problems which may develop. With the stainless, just use a high grade lubricant as recommended by the manufacturer and you will be OK. I just like steel pistols! I hate the aluminum frame pistols on the market today as aluminum in not near as strong as carbon steel or stainless, but that is another story. Just my opinion


Marvin

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

The question betwen steels is not betwen Stainless or carbon steel, its much more than that.

Very few producers today are using carbon steel at all and instead using low or high alloy steel.

The differnce lies in the others compnents of the steel like nickel, vanadium, tungsten,lead, etc. etc.


If you simply comperes the cheapest and worst carbon steel against the cheapst and worst stainless steel you will deffinitely find two very unsuiteable steel qualitys.

On the other hand if you compere the better stainless tool steels to the better alloy steels you will find the characsteriskts fairly similar.

But the SS steel does always have a higher risk of galling.


I would personally not be scared of building a supertight pistol in a really good SS quality.

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For a steel to be considerd as SS it's generally said that it should have a content of at least 12% chromium.

Normal SS steel used kitchens etc does normally have a content of ca 18% chromium and 8 % nickel.

The Chromium and the nickel content is making the steels softer and is rising the chanse of galling.

To prevent galling the steel can be made harder and this way also more costly to buy and to machine.


Therefor mostly producers of SS semiautomatic guns are using steels that are inferior for the purpose.

To prevent galling with their inferior steel they are generally making their guns pretty sloppy, as the loose fit will prevent galling to an extent.


Take a colt 1911 SS gun for example, it will work fairly ok as long as its sloopy as an old......

But when you make it's as tight as a teen...... it will gall and loose it's tightness within a few tousands rounds.


I have not much experince of Taurus pistols and absolutely no positive experince at all.

If you must buy a taurus you better stick to a Blued that most likely is made out of an alloy steel.

But you would probaly be better of with a cheap S&W m10 or whatever.


Regards

HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[Johnny Peppers]

Marvin,

410 stainless steel is the more commonly used stainless steel which can be hardened. Surgical instruments are normally made of 420, and 440C is commonly used in custom knives where high hardness is needed. The steel can be machined or ground in the soft annealed state, but tempered to an extreme hardness. These fall into the martensitic family of stainless steels which have a high chromium content along with a high carbon content. I have never seen the family of stainless steels used in making handguns and rifles, but I would think that it came from this family.

The family of austenitic stainless steel is commonly used where high corrosion resistence is needed. If I remember correctly from my construction days, industrial pipe fittings normally came in LC (low carbon) or ELC (extra low carbon) with the ELC being the most corrosive resistant.

[Johnny Peppers]

Viggo,

Something in that rings a bell, but that was more than a few years ago. I worked for Grinnell Co. in their industrial piping division and had to verify that all installations had the proper material at the proper place, and something is familiar about the 18-8. Something I hadn't thought of in years.

Johnny,

As best as I can remember the 18-8 stainless was the original steel alloy with true stainless character.

18% nickle therefor it is non magnetic. And still most frequently used for cooking pots and pans because of its ductility and ease of rolling and roller spinning.

.08% chrome, this is the culprit that causes the spalling and seizing characteristic. The chrome crystals form in the slip planes and lock the molecular structure, sort of keying the molecular slip planes. When machined these chrome crystals cut into the adjoining molecular surfaces sliding past, like a small cutting tool and the chips start the spalling.

Hope I have remembered correctly,

I've just been had by the "LHJ" ** and I'm still a bit gun shy. ** = "Luger Hoax Joker" or "something like that".

ViggoG

[Marvin]

Johnny,


I agree with you and Hakan about the steels. I used the generic terms of carbon steel and stainless without getting too technical. Onr thing about steels are that the application must be investigated and the steel properties matched to the service required. Most people just see "stainless steel" as the material the firearm is made from and figure the maufacturer has the right material. One thing I have learned is that manufacturers want to keep the cost as low as possible to sell their products, but still provide a good product. As with firearms, I wonder what the make-up of the stainless many maufacturers are using today?


A pistol can be made from a lower grade stainless and still function, but not in the long run, or under severe conditions. As with a high grade alloy steel, the cost for material is less, and if the heat treating is performed correctly, the firearms will be top quality and last many years under severe conditions.


As to the Taurus pistols, I feel they are very well made and would make a good arm to carry anywhere. I have nver heard of any major problems with them, but I am sure they have had their problems too. I still like Steer over Stainless anyway; just one of my likes and dislikes I guess.


This had been a really good thread!


Marvin

[Mark M.]

Gruss Gott,alle!

Thanks Haken (sorry,I can't do umlauts with my equipment) and all of you for your well presented and thought out responses.I'm seeing this thread for the first time today.My friend,denfoote,posed this questin from my keyboard without my knowledge because I had told him that several people on this forum were knowledgable in the area of metalurgy(sp.?) and related fields. I wish he had remembered to tell me to check for responses,but he apparently forgot that part.

In any case,I bought the blued model, and after having read your comments, I think I did alright,as long as the it's made of ordinance grade steel of either variety. If I had read everything here first I might have gone with the stainless for its corrossion resistance,but that's neither here nor there at this point. These pistols don't exhibit the tightness of the Luger,by any means! The clearances would allow for construction from "good" stainless.

I want to thank you all for your help and your willingness to devote so much time and expertise to such a "Totally off topic" question. This just proves once again the Kaliber of the people of this forum! Nochmals,vielen Dank!!


Tschuss! Mark M.