Rare ??? luger

About 30 years ago a man I knew started a pistol shop and he had a Luger that he wanted to get rid of as it had no serial number or markings. He thought that the ATF would not let him keep it in his shop so he sold it to me.

Later a dealer who was in the OSS in WWII told me it was one of 3 survivors from 100 make by the OSS at the end of the war. He said it was not a "lunch-box special".

The gun has no markings except for an "N" or "Z" on the underside of the slide/fork and "GELADEN" in the usual place. It has the Swiss type walnut grips and is in 90 % condition.


Anyone have any ideas on this gun?

tnx

lee


lee.

Lee if all that you have been told about this Luger is true.

You have one of the rarest vaieties and probably unknown to the collector world and extremely valuable if it can be documented as fact.

Is it Is or is it aint, You have a big question mark ????

Lots of luck and PLEASE post pictures with J. Sebato or Dok.

ViggoG

I will be the first to admit that my ignorance on this specific topic and on Lugers in general is awesome. However, I could not fathom why the OSS would make 100 Lugers from scratch unless they had some hidden special features to them. If on the other hand the OSS was merely issuing a pistol to agents in Europe which would be less suspicious than an American weapon, why not just use captured byf's instead of guns which are obviously conspicuous by their lack of markings?


Mob hits are often made in this country with guns with the serial numbers ground off in order to impede the investigation, but I somehow doubt that OSS agents would rely on this technique as a means of eluding the Gestapo.


I do hope you find an answer, as I am intrigued by your pistol. Maybe one of the experts here knows right off the bat what it is.

Lee, I also have a couple of completely unnumbered lugers, a 1939 & 1940 dated BYFs. I purchased them long ago since most of the parts are S/42 or 42 marked spares in new condition, for the parts, but I haven't had the heart to break them up. I too believe that they were made up from armour's spare parts for the occupying GIs, but I've never heard the OSS version of the story. Tom

Lee,

Not to downplay what you have said, but at the end of the war lots of Nambu and Lugers were still in the white without any markings and were liberated by GI's. It is possible it is something like that?


Although many times the grain of truth is very true and they could be a liberated box of Lugers meant for spying?? I don't really know.


Pictures would help if possible?


Ed

[Joe]

If these unmarked Lugers were made by or for the OSS to be used by agents in occupied Europe why didn't we just issue captured Lugers, as asked by a previous responder. What advantage would there be in being found by the German police with an unnumber Luger. That weapon would arouse great suspicion, because it was so DIFFERENT. Where did the OSS get a company in America that had the tools, time and the highly skilled workers to stop everything and make a few Lugers.

Think about it, it dosn't make any sense. The gun was probably made up after the war ended for the GIs, as was previously mentioned. The OSS story was added to give this Luger "value". Why would anyone buy a gun from a dealer who tells you HE will get in trouble with the ATF for have a gun without a serial number. What about YOU being found with that gun in YOUR possession.

However, on the other hand, Lee says it has the Swiss style grips. I have never seen a Swiss Luger in person, but don't the Swiss grips mount on a straight and non-curved frontstrap, which is not something which would have probably been available to GI's rooting through the bins of the Mauser factory after the war (also, actually, wasn't it the French who took over the factory--or was that just Walther?)? I previously indicated my problems with the OSS theory, but I also am not convinced that this gun can be explained away by the handyman GI hypothesis.


Also, and this is just my opinion, if this is in fact a Luger made by conquering GI's pillaging the remains of the Third Reich, it would be collectable, historical, and interesting in its own right, even if it wasn't officially made by the factory. I will stop at this point, however, before we get into what makes a gun a genuine Luger. I could see this leading into a debate on whether or not modern stainless steel guns with toggles are really Lugers, etc. and it is really not my intention of going there.


I think that we would all like Lee to post photos of his pistol.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

On the pattern room there is a SOE Luger old model with silencer togehter with some other special guns that SOE have converted.

I find it highly impossible that OSS had made any lugers but its of course possible that they have bought unnumberd parts and assembeld.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[bill m]

I have never heard this story before and it is interesting. In this day and age of so many messed with Lugers, one has to be skeptical of all stories.


An interesting part of the story is the "100 made by the OSS at the end of the war". If they were made at the end of the war, what happened to the other 97? How does this guy know only 3 are left? Where are the other 2 then?

[Hugh]

I think I can answer all the foregoing questions. The book, "Clandestine Pistols of the Second World War" on page 131 makes specific mention of these special weapons produced by the OSS. It explains that the reason the Luger was chosen was because of its unique toggle action which allowed it to be fired from a pocket without a retracting slide catching on the cloth. Tests showed that a full clip could be discharged with no problems. It further documents certain assinations in which this weapon was used.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Leta not forget the U-2 !!!

ViggoG

You guys are getting too smart for me. I'll have to think up something really new!

[Deaf Smith]

There is nothing illegal about having a gun MADE without a serial number just having one with the number "defaced" as in ground off etc. many of the cheaper era guns(22 rifles single shot shotguns some pocket pistols) made befour 1968 did not HAVE serial numbers on them. till GCA 68 required it.


I can see however why a new dealer would not want to have one in his possision. Any reason not to get the attention of ATF when you are in bisness is always a good thing. He just did not want to chance it. It was not worth his licence being delayed while they "checked it out" and or messing with his livelyhood etc.

Deaf Smith

[John Sabato]

To flag ALL of Martin's posts with a special "BS ALERT" Symbol !!! before he leaves all the newbies in a complete state of confusion!


Thanks Martin, that really cleared up that Mystery!

John

[bill m]

[Dok]

it says MARTIN!